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OT:I read yesterday in a Hitchcock biography that he initially wanted The Birds to be a murder mystery. How the hell would that turn out?

posted 2 years ago by Horrorlover656 (36)
18 replies | jump to latest

I could imagine it being like this:- Someone's murdered in a particular place but we have no idea about the murderer or the weapon, except that they mutilate their victims. We can place some out of control birds in the background shots(think of the aviary store at the beginning). Maybe place a certain 'wrong man' as the red herring, but it turns out the birds are the real killers when he gets killed at the same location.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

@Horror. It's hard to believe that the 'murder mystery' idea for developing the The Birds's basic scenario was entertained for very long (it must have been v. early in development I'd say) for basically the reasons you describe: An implacable, mysterious force threatening a community, at least once initial incredulity is overcome, is the complete opposite of suspense built on our knowledge vs a character's knowledge vs the authorities' knowledge.

Famously, however, there have been *big* films that had murder mystery elements in their screenplays for years only to ditch it even as late as during editing.

E.g. 1. American Beauty was supposed to end with a big trial of the daughter+video boy next door for the murder of Lester Burnham with lots of whodunnit-y touches about the wife as a suspect etc.. I knew about this late, in-post change of the story in American Beauty at the time of its release and thought I could see clearly lots of traces of that omittted story still in the final product, so it always felt a bit muddled to me. In my view at the time AB was a 'good save' but not really Best Picture-worthy in a very competitive year (1999)... little did I know.

E.g. 2. Annie Hall's screenplay originally had Annie as a much more minor character *and* had Albie and Annie solving a murder mystery. The murder mystery stuff was dropped before shooting (but was reused as the basis of the screenplay for Manhattan Murder Mystery (1993)), but Annie was still far from the center of the (as shot, 2 hr 20 min) movie and the script lacked an ending. It was editor Ralph Rosenblum who saw that the Annie story was stronger by itself and who sold Allen on the streamlining, and 'found' the ending. The Annie Hall chapter of Rosenblum's book on editing, "When the Shooting Stops . . . the Cutting Begins", is called "Annie Hall - It Wasn't The Film He Set Out To Make" and has to be read to be believed.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

@Horror. It's hard to believe that the 'murder mystery' idea for developing the The Birds's basic scenario was entertained for very long (it must have been v. early in development I'd say)

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This ties into the fact that The Birds, even though from a Daphne Du Maurier short story about attacking birds, had to be "built from the ground up" for the movies. Psycho screenwriter Joe Stefano turned the job down, saying "it was a short story -- short, but not really a story." This was to practically require an original screenplay -- like the one for North by Northwest -- whereas the screenplay for Psycho was written from extremely well-structured and shocking material.

I think Hitchcock and screenwriter Evan Hunter mused that a murder mystery might "carry the slow beginning" in a different way, but soon they threw the idea out.

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CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

for basically the reasons you describe: An implacable, mysterious force threatening a community, at least once initial incredulity is overcome, is the complete opposite of suspense built on our knowledge vs a character's knowledge vs the authorities' knowledge.

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It is rather interesting to see The Birds try for awhile to maintain suspense of the "they won't believe me!" type(inaugurated by Hitchcock in The Lady Vanishes.) Nobody BELIEVES Tippi about the bird attacks early on -- not the sheriff, not "the bird expert at the Tides," not really the fishing boat captain. So: suspense. But once the birds attack everybody, it shifts to a kind of End of the World horror.

It is somewhat interesting to think of a murder mystery being incorporated into The Birds. Two ways, I suppose: (1) Murder victims are found -- their eyes gouged -- and the cops think they are hunting a serial killer until the birds reveal themselves. This was the rather practical and realistic way that "Them!: -- a hit Warner Brothers monster movie of 1954 -- unfolded. Bloody, ripped apart bodies are found and a serial killer is surmised. Turns out the REAL killers are...GIANT ANTS. One of the biggest hits of 1954, very influential(on Jaws -- there are three ant-hunters here).

(2) Go ahead with a murder mystery and the killer reveals himself and makes mischief and maybe tries to kill Tippi, and ends up killed by the birds.

Nah...Hitch and Hunter were right to dump the idea.

They also tried a version of "The Birds" about a female school teacher who comes to Bodega Bay and the attacks begin. She was "downgraded" to support (Annie Hayworth.) Then, Annie was set to be attacked in the attic room at the end, but Hitch and Hunter decided to give Tippi that scene...and kill Annie off early. Such POWER in creating a world on paper to film as a movie.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

E.g. 1. American Beauty was supposed to end with a big trial of the daughter+video boy next door for the murder of Lester Burnham with lots of whodunnit-y touches about the wife as a suspect etc.. I knew about this late, in-post change of the story in American Beauty at the time of its release and thought I could see clearly lots of traces of that omittted story still in the final product, so it always felt a bit muddled to me.

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Yeah, the story seemed to be heading in that "trial direction"(with those suspects) and...just dropped the thread.

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In my view at the time AB was a 'good save' but not really Best Picture-worthy in a very competitive year (1999)... little did I know.

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What really bothered me at the time is that I thought Kevin Spacey -- a fine actor in both films -- had a MUCH better and definitive role in LA Confidential two years before(unnominated) and MUCH more of a Best Picture in LA Confidential and...he wins for this medocrity (which starts well with Spacey's insinuating narration and "reveal" that he is already dead.) And some other picture -- ANY other picture -- should have beaten American Beauty.

As I understand it, the push for American Beauty to win in 1999 was Spielberg's revenge to losing to Harvey Weinstein's campaign for Shakespeare in Love(over Saving Private Ryan) in 1998. Much money was spent, much advertising was bought, much lobbying was necessary to "beat Weinstein." (I can't remember Weinstein's 1999 Best Picture candidate.) Weinstein used to be more famous for his bullying takeover of the Oscar race than his personal predation.

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CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

E.g. 2. Annie Hall's screenplay originally had Annie as a much more minor character *and* had Albie and Annie solving a murder mystery.

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Funny how that eventually became Manhattan Murder Mystery -- a coupla of decades later with Keaton returning to co-star with Allen years after their relationship had ended.

I think the moral of this story is: a murder mystery can/should/will ALWAYS dominate the movie it is in, it can't play "side fiddle" to the main plot.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

I think the moral of this story is: a murder mystery can/should/will ALWAYS dominate the movie it is in, it can't play "side fiddle" to the main plot.

An ultra-light and -frothy French musical from 1967 that everyone who knows it loves called "The Young Girls of Rochefort" (w/ Deneuve and her sister, Francoise Dorleac who died in a horrific car accident shortly after filming was completed, and Gene Kelly) *bizarrely* has a 'serial killer of pretty young women on the loose' sub-plot. The movie kind of forgets about the sub-plot and each time it comes back to it you internally go 'Damn, what are you doing reminding us of this?'. Young Girls really deserves to have a fan-edit that drops the whole thing. The opening credits of Young Girls are, however, a guaranteed good mood:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zIUbDEwOowM

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

starts well with Spacey's insinuating narration

And his narration at the end of the film is a highlight too. In general, the film had lots of good scenes and good technicals and score it just had lots of bad scenes seemingly traceable to the rewriting/saving-in-the-edit/never-having-quite-cracked-the-script-in-the-first-place that went on.

"reveal" that he is already dead.

It's funny, the lift of that plot device from Sunset Blvd didn't bother me when I saw American Beauty in the cinema, but it's bugged me, made me think less of the film, on rewatches at home.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

Annie was still far from the center of the (as shot, 2 hr 20 min) movie and the script lacked an ending. It was editor Ralph Rosenblum who saw that the Annie story was stronger by itself and who sold Allen on the streamlining, and 'found' the ending.

Looking back, 1977 was *the* year of editing heroics. Rosenblum effectively co-directed Annie Hall with that big edit down to a dazzling 90 minute rom-com and he came up with the film's ending. And Marcia Lucas (who'd been away editing Taxi Driver for Scorsese) was brought in to get the whole final battle in Star Wars to work. As scripted and shot that battle didn't have any race against time element. The Death Star *wasn't* closing in on blowing up the Rebel Base; that was Marcia Lucas's suggestion for restructuring the whole ending sequence and she presented a new rough cut with that shape to show George how they could tell that much more dramatic story with just the coverage they had.

A little later people became very aware that Walter Murch's editing contributions to Apocalypse Now were similarly immense and Allan Heim's editing made All The Jazz. Editing's prestige rose sharply in the late '70s (with Verna Fields' work on Jaws being a forerunner) and ever since editing noms have accompanied Best Picture Oscar wins without exception.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

starts well with Spacey's insinuating narration
And his narration at the end of the film is a highlight too. In general, the film had lots of good scenes and good technicals and score

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I liked the film at the beginning...the narration(Spacey's insinuating voice seemed at odds with his suburban everyman role, but that was part of the twist of the film itself; he was going to give us a peek at the "real Spacey.") The music, the mood. But as far as I'm concerned the script and some of the performances -- one in particular -- just went right off the tracks.

--- it just had lots of bad scenes seemingly traceable to the rewriting/saving-in-the-edit/never-having-quite-cracked-the-script-in-the-first-place that went on.

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Well, as much as admire scenes that are logical, real and thoughtful in some movies (like those in LA Confidential with Kevin Spacey) , I DISLIKE scenes that are NOT, that take me out of the movie. Here, let me list a few for AB:

I didn't believe that the job Spacey had at the beginning could finance that house he lived in -- unless wife Annette Bening's real estate job made her the real breadwinner, in which case, this isn't really HIS movie.

I didn't believe that Spacey's boss would go. after firing him, for the sexual blackmail and pay him a year's salary.

I didn't believe that Spacey would actually get hired to work at a McDonald's window --he gets a funny speech about wanting a job "with no responsibility at all" -- a fantasy for all who are burdened by adult work -- but it doesn't make the plot development any more believable.

Acting: I thought that Annette Bening's shrewish (if pressured) wife was just a HORRIBLE performance, way over the top, cartoonish -- so when she had to get "sad and serious" at the end -- no sale.

Acting: The usually dynamic Allison Janey was reduced to playing HER suburban wife as a catatonic, depressive mess..it was as too much as Bening's role, just in a different way. I don't think this movie much liked women.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Acting: The sullen teenage daughter and her sexpot teenage cheerleader friend. All too much an expression of the creator's essential disgust with everything and everybody in suburbia, I guess. But it all seemed so BROAD and cartoonish. These weren't real people.

Hey, I guess I'm confessin' a dislike for one of our most misbegotten "Best Pictures." I do think that what's sad is how there ARE some insightful scenes out of nowhere , and great lines and moments (like when the doper trying to perform his catering waiter duties gets lip from the boss and quits on the spot while serving, heh).

And how about THIS?

AB steals a line from Frenzy and does it WORSE:

Frenzy:

Blaney: I lost my job today.
Ex-wife: You got fired?
Blaney (angry): Of COURSE I got fired. What did you think? I MISLAID it?

American Beauty:

Spacey: I lost my job today.
Wife: You got fired?
Spacey(angry): OF COURSE I got fired. What did you think? I was wondering "hey, I can't find my job, where is it?"

(Less pithy.)

I will admit that I know some men of a certain age who actually LOVE American Beauty for how Spacey eventually rebels against his monstrous wife and sullen, spoiled daughter --its a fantasy they dig. And that the film ultimately elects to examine male gay issues, but in a most exploitational way...well, I'm not sure what to say about that. This was the movie's message?

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

"reveal" that he is already dead.
It's funny, the lift of that plot device from Sunset Blvd

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Oh, yeah. THAT's where its from! Well, borrow from the best..

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didn't bother me when I saw American Beauty in the cinema, but it's bugged me, made me think less of the film, on rewatches at home.

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Its a hard call, when a movie opens with the character dead...the whole movie REALLY becomes about "OK, how and why did he die?" and the OTHER story takes second chair. Though I think in both cases, one FORGETS that the lead is dead for awhile, one only starts to remember as the movie heads for its climactic scenes.

Which reminds me -- and how can this be a spoiler? -- Carlito's Way OPENS with our hero(Al Pacino) getting shot several times. He begins narration and the whole movie is a flashback to this point. He is PROBABLY dying...we can't be sure. The ending is a pretty thrilling chase in which the whole POINT is that we hope Carlito escapes his Mafia pursuers and gets a happy ending with his girlfriend in the Caribbean BUT...we start to remember: he's going to get SHOT.

Still, Carlito's Way gets to play it both ways...shot(YES)..dead?(we have to wait to find out.)

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

I will admit that I know some men of a certain age who actually LOVE American Beauty for how Spacey eventually rebels against his monstrous wife and sullen, spoiled daughter --its a fantasy they dig.

Yes, I knew some middle-aged dudes who had Lester Burnham as their hero. Curiously, while the film did seem to want to humanize Carolyn (Annette Bening) at times, the overall picture of her was so horrifying that I'm pretty sure that *no* woman alive had her as *their* hero. And, as you say elsewhere in this thread Caroline's sanctification at the end of the film doesn't convince. We're supposed to believe that she's *at the front door in the rain* coming in to shoot and kill Lester *herself* when she hears the fatal gunshot delivered by the neighbor (so it's pure luck that *she* doesn't kill Lester). We don't see Carolyn see Lester's body (although we surmise that she must have caught a glimpse), rather we just see her very sad and shook up in their bedroom. She hides her gun in a hamper, evidently very aware that she's going to be a big suspect for a murder she didn't commit (but would have committed if she'd come home 5 minutes earlier), then the script explains something that in the film is pretty hard to interpret:

"[S]uddenly aware of Lester's scent, she grabs as many of his clothes as she can and pulls them to her,
burying her face in them. She sinks to her knees, pulling several items of clothing down with her, and she begins to cry."

This sudden change of heart is hard to believe alright but it fits with Lester's inner monologue self-sanctification of Carolyn that follows. Lester's last vision of this world before the final helicopter shot up to the heavens is of a younger, happier, carefree Carolyn on an amusement park ride. Talk about looking on the bright side of someone who, but for preemption by a crazed neighbor, would have just blown your brains out!

[–] roger1 (3626) 2 years ago

[deleted]

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Test.

[–] roger1 (3626) 2 years ago

swanstep..this is the formerly named "ecarle," now using Roger1 for ...the time being?

I changed computers and for some reason I cannot access my old "ecarle" account.

Perhaps someday the moviechat techs can let me back in to ecarle. I'll keep trying.

In the meantime: I'm Roger1

Which reminds me: in Stanley Donen's "Charade," Audrey Hepburn tells Cary Grant that he has changed the name he gives her no less than four times in the course of the movie. Grant replies: "The name may change, but the man is the same."

So it is with me.

.

[–] roger1 (3626) 2 years ago

I will admit that I know some men of a certain age who actually LOVE American Beauty for how Spacey eventually rebels against his monstrous wife and sullen, spoiled daughter --its a fantasy they dig.

Yes, I knew some middle-aged dudes who had Lester Burnham as their hero.

I saw American Beauty on release, and maybe a couple of times more. Once was on a golfing trip with some guys and one of them chose to order up American Beauty on Pay per View for “the guys” to watch. Reason why: he loved it. Reason why: because he DID feel it tapped into the dark side of marriage and he WAS entertained by Spacey eventually biting back at both his wife and daughter. I recall that he found the bit were Annette Bening was ALMOST ready to be intimate with Spacey but didn’t want him to spill wine on the couch –“that’s exactly IT!” he said. Interestingly, this guy is still with his wife of decades so…he’s no Lester. And she’s a nice gal.

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Curiously, while the film did seem to want to humanize Carolyn (Annette Bening) at times, the overall picture of her was so horrifying that I'm pretty sure that *no* woman alive had her as *their* hero.

It’s a movie from “the male point of view.” But the tricky part may well be that it is from the GAY male’s point of view: the writer was openly gay Alan Ball, showrunner of Six Feet Under. So there wasn’t going to be much sympathy for the Bening character from any male pov.

And, as you say elsewhere in this thread Caroline's sanctification at the end of the film doesn't convince.

No. I haven’t seen the movie in a long time, so your descriptions remind me of “what happened in the story plot” whereas my memories are more “general”: Whether the script or direction called for it, Bening played that wife WAY over the top for much of the movie; got posited as one of the “possible killers” and THEN reverted to an emotional, caring woman at the end.

CONT

[–] roger1 (3626) 2 years ago

That’s my biggest problem with American Beauty: no sense of controlled TONE. Sometimes, the movie is deeply artful(the home video of the bag blowing in the wind); sometimes the movie is wildly satiric(Lester taking the job at the burger place); sometimes the tone is ridiculous(Bening’s motel tryst with her lover), sometimes the tone is “very serious”( a lot of the final 20 minutes.) Very inconsistent and too overly broad.

And yet, it won Best Director, putting Sam Mendes on the map, and Best Original Screenplay(the less competitive category than Adapted) for Alan Ball.

As noted, the Best Picture win was in some ways “Dreamworks and Spielberg going to war on Miramax and Weinstein.” Weinstein’s Best Picture pitch was “The Cider House Rules,” with a fine, sad character for Michael Caine to play. Caine won the Best Supporting Actor Oscar(the second such win for a leading man actor!). When Caine won the Golden Globe, he was witty to fellow nominee Tom Cruise(Magnolia): “Tom, you didn’t want to win this award. Its for supporting actor – your price would go down!”

CONT

[–] roger1 (3626) 2 years ago

1999 has a whole book written about it being the best movie year of the 90s, which I decidedly think it is NOT. I’d vote for 1997 first, and then for 1994. Still, my favorite movie of 1999 was among the Best Picture nominees: The Green Mile, from the Shawshank Redemption team of Stephen King and Frank Darabont, with Big Tom Hanks in his superstar years(Saving Private Ryan was the year before; Cast Away would be the next year.)

I’d vote for The Green Mile, but I preferred a lot of 90s movies to it in that decade. However, the movie well mixed Hanks penchant for tear-jerking(at the end) with King’s penchant for horror(a sabotaged electric chair execution of a nice little man goes sickeningly wrong.)