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OT: "The White Lotus" -- Season One Vs. Season Two (MAJOR SPOILERS FOR BOTH)

posted 2 years ago by ecarle (14979)
38 replies | jump to latest

Oh, why not a bit of an OT discussion.

I have now watched both "Season One" and "Season Two" of the HBO hit series "The White Lotus." As with many cable shows, this "series" is not one big story , but rather disparate stories with new characters in new locales -- less the sharing of a couple of actors from Season One in Season Two.

I open from a position of some regret: I know that swanstep liked Season One of the show very much in many ways(I've lost track of where to find the posts) and that I...did not. Happens around here.

Of course, you could say I'm the one in the wrong seeing as Season One won 10 Emmies including Best Series(limited?) and an acting one for Jennifer Coolidge.

Eh, maybe. I don't put much stock in Emmies. People like Don Knotts, John Lithgow and Angela Lansbury kept winning every year -- I think Lansbury removed her name from competition it was getting so embarrassing. Its not that they aren't good actors, its that teh awards became so repetitious as to lose value.

Anyway, I've seen The White Lotus Season Two, and I liked it a LOT better than Season One. Which only puts me in the general mix on ANY White Lotus Board '' "Season Two: Sophomore slump? verus "Season Two: better.")

I do think that my liking of Season Two puts me in a better place on the entire "series"(all two Seasons of it, and there will be a third) and I thought I'd express a few thoughts on how/why this is so.

"The White Lotus" is about a mythical "luxury hotel chain" for the very rich. Season One was set at The White Lotus in Hawaii. Season Two is set at The White Lotus in Sicily. Both seasons make use of beaches and oceans to remind us: there's no place better to vacation than a beach and on the adjacent ocean. ALL of us can go to affordable places on the sea , but ONLY the very rich can go to a resort like The White Lotus.

Its been noted that the main theme of both seasons could be construed as about how "rich white people are evil at worst, and uncaring of those beneath them at best," and well...OK. We've got centuries of such writing and famous literary quotes like "the rich are different"(is that it?) and...

...uh oh...I've already stumbled into this woke thing which I'd rather avoid even though The White Lotus is big on it. (On the other hand, if you take race out of it, you end up with Parasite, which was about class, and both The White Lotus and Parasite are about rich people and the people who work service jobs for them.)

We've taken joy in the affairs and angsts of the rich many times in American TV culture: Dallas and Dynasty in the 80's were all ABOUT that(with multiple offshoots like Knots Landing and Falcon Crest.)

And I can point to a particular simile to The White Lotus and its themes in "Mad Men" which basically offered this message about marriage: "If you are rich and great looking, far too many people will be coming on to you to stick with monogamy." And thus, as I recall, on Mad Men, every married rich handsome man and rich married gorgeous woman was cheating on their spouse sometime, or continually. It just went with the territory.

As it does on "The White Lotus." We've been here before. The show also shows up another trait of the viewer: what draws us to spend time with so many UNLIKEABLE people, in a world that most of us cannot experience ourselves?

Oh, some reason, I guess. But then I only watched a handful of Dallas episodes. I don't LIKE to spend time with unlikeable people, except in small doses, over quickly. 7 episodes apiece. The White Lotus.

Writer-director showrunner Mike White has said "Season One was about money; Season Two is about sex" and , hey, OK -- there's my reason for liking Season Two better right there. Almost everybody in Season Two has sex sometimes, and sometimes we see quite a lot of the action(one particular Italian actress was clearly hired for her willingness to do a LOT of nudity; and one particular Italian actor goes the full monty.)

But there was sex in Season One, and sex isn't all that Season Two is about.

My main preference for Season Two is...the cast. Overall, but a few in particular:

Michael Imperioli, trailing the goodwill of "Sopranos" memories while believably playing an entirely non-violent character -- a rich movie executive on vacay in Sicily with his 80 year old father(F. Murray Abraham) and Stanford-educated son. That this Season is set in Sicily --home of the Mafia -- only makes Christofah Moltisanti's participation more delicious --and his character visits the REAL house and courtyard where Michael Corleone's wife was blown up, thereby giving us a "Sopranos meet the Corelones" vibe that is to die for.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

F. Murray Abraham: I mean, this guy is in an elite club: a Best Actor Oscar winner(Amadeus, a great film) won by a guy who wasn't any kind of star. I didn't even know he was still working, but there he is, with the great majestic voice and regal manner of a movie star even if he isn't one. And for the most part, he plays the most sympathetic character in The White Lotus 2 -- he gets a couple of edgy, insulting moments but overall he is the voice of kindness and reason in the piece.

Watching him, I thought over the F. Murray Abraham(what a name!) career as I remember it :

Scarface(1983) Support to Al Pacino as an ugly , antagonistic gangster who gets nastily killed(dropped from a helicopter with a noose around his neck) early on. Abraham had a great voice, but a very mottled face -- I think he had work done?
Amadeus(1984) Just one year after a bit in Scarface...the Big One.
Name of the Rose(1986) Over the title with Sean Connery in a whodunnit set in a monastery. A friend and I have discussed this: new Oscar winners usually get one or two "big roles" after they win -- and then make it, or fade. (Rami Malek is the current example.)

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[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Surviving the Game(1994): I have a soft spot for this ugly and savage umpteenth version of "The Most Dangerous Game." Here, Ice-T plays a well-adjusted homeless man hired to "guide" a bunch of rich guys in the wilderness -- only to find out that they are going to hunt him down and kill him for sport. (He kills all of them, instead. Satisfying.) The movie has to sell each and every one of the rich guys(and some not so rich, and including a black villain) as psychopaths of the most sadistic sort, all grouped together. And..one of them is F. Murray Abraham, as a character who has brought his young son along to "learn how to kill" and the young son doesn't want to. I linger on this movie because I remember watching it and thinking "I can understand the rest of the cast going for this -- Rutger Hauer, Gary Busey, Charles Dutton -- but F. MURRAY ABRAHAM? I felt sad that he was in the movie. Well, about 30 years later..."The White Lotus" returns Abraham to favor in my eyes(I'm sure he's worked in between.)

and on the ladies side:

Aubrey Plaza. She's quite the hot property right now. I like her, and I've been following her since her debut(?) on Parks and Recreation (a show that spawned several stars, yes?)

Several key things about Aubrey Plaza:

ONE: She's got that great thing for stars at any level: a very special face. I think a lot of our stars -- male and female alike-- have SPECIAL features. Not necessarily beautiful or handsome, but MEMORABLE. Aubrey Plaza has a "look" -- dark eyes, a certain smile, a certain scowl -- and definitely a certain beauty.

TWO: She started out on Parks and Rec doing a "one trick pony" bit: deadpan, emotion-free, disdainful of others but faking interest. Deadpan works for men in comedy. Deadpan works for women in comedy. Plaza worked this acting schtick into more and more roles("Hey, its that snarky chick from Parks and Rec!") until she could land some key serious indie roles and move up the ladder.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

THREE: Some actresses go nude to get started; Aubrey Plaza worked semi-nude(lingerie and bikini) in very SEXUAL(not sexy) roles to get a movie launch. Two in particular: "Mike and Dave Need Wedding Dates" and "Dirty Grandpa." In both movies, her role is "Oversexed hard drinking badass chick" but she's not a "Mean Girl" in either of them -- guys could dig on her forthright sexualilty and Bill Murray-ish party spirit. "Dirty Grandpa" is special and hated: Robert DeNiro ostensibly "throwing his career away" to play a recently widowed 70-something out for sex(its been YEARS) and finding in Aubrey Plaza a young party girl/nympho who is only too happy to oblige. Hey, you've got all these movies with geezers like Liam Neeson beating up and killing people -- why NOT a sex fantasy for older men? Aubrey Plaza knew what she was doing partaking in THAT movie.

FOUR: "Now she's serious." The "Dirty Grandpa" roles are behind her, the "one trick pony" Parks and Rec personality is no longer required(except maybe on talk shows) , so Aubrey Plaza is getting serious about her career. I saw her in good crime movie called "Emily the Criminal" on Netflix this past month, and The White Lotus cements her status, again -- she's the "star" in the show. Now let's watch her go all the way to stardom. Though...careful..both Jennifer Lawrence and more recently Margot Robbie seem to have been losing steam. (Robbie just had two flops in a row with the rather matched Amsterdam and Babylon.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

This leaves one more "star attraction" in White Lotus 2 and she's one of two holdovers from White Lotus 1:

Jennifer Coolidge.

Like Aubrey Plaza, Jennifer Coolidge is a hot property right now...but much later in life(60's versus Aubrey's 30's). Coolidge has a BIG schtick going right now -- she's ditzy, unfocussed, delivers her lines in a mushy slur. She started out decades ago as a younger sexpot version of this character(She was "Stifler's Mom" the sexy MILF that one teenage guy gets to MILF , in American Pie), but now she's got years and pounds on and she's become rather gargoyle-ish and yet...beloved in many quarters and (I guess) ...a gay icon?

You could tell that Jennifer Coolidge has made it big because SNL got one of their cast members to do an impression of her a few weeks ago and the woman had the schtick down perfectly. Its good news and its bad news -- will Coolidge become overexposed, her schtick too...schticky?

Probably not, and what does it matter...she had a great career up til now.

Coolidge was in most - but not all -- of the Christopher Guest "docu-comedies." She missed "Waiting for Guffman" but was in "Best of Show" and the rest. Maybe "Waiting for Guffman" is a little bit better with her schtick not in it.

BTW, with all the sex scenes in White Lotus 2, Coolidge got the comedy one. As her middle-aged husband pumps away at her, the camera keeps cutting to Coolidge's big, heavy, smeary face as she reacts to the sexual experience in a rather, er...lumpish and cross-eyed manner. Its funny. And it does't look sexy. Brave actress.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Here's some MAJOR SPOILERS:

White Lotus Season 2 opens with a body floating in the Sicilian sea --all we see are bare legs. Hotel staff exchange information: "And other guests are dead too!" Like Season 1, Season 2 is about guessing who dies. (Both seasons then move one week earlier to show us how the corpses became such.)

Well...after a surprisingly suspenseful two final episodes to put her in great, mortal danger (from, evidently, mostly goofy looking gay Mafia kidnapper-killers)...its Jennifer Coolidge who ends up the dead body floating in the ocean. And the goofy gay Mafia guys are the other victims(she manages to shoot them dead before dying trying to dive off the yacht in which she's been held prisoner without knowing it til too late.)

I thought this was interesting: at the end of The White Lotus Season One(the Hawaii one), Jennifer Coolidge -- playing the same character -- did something "low level evil" to the African-American hotel masseuse who was banking on Coolidge to bankroll her salon. Coolidge just pulled the plug on the offer having used the woman as a confidante and emotional counselor for the whole Hawaii trip.

So...if you feel bad about Jennifer Coolidge dying in White Lotus 2...you could also feel GOOD that the villainess of White Lotus 1 got her just desserts(death.)

I dunno, maybe in future White Lotus seasons, they can just keep bringing back evil characters from past shows and kill them off too. (A rich Mama's Boy of inherited wealth in Season 1 who ruled over his wife just had a punchable face, let's bring him back and kill HIM off.)

Jennifer Coolidge has a nice internet meme out of this series: her pleas to an Italian yacht captain who speaks no English: "Please! These gays are trying to murder me!"

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CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I linger on those key actors in White Lotus Season 2 -- Michael Imperioli, F. Murray Abraham, Jennifer Coolidge and -- above all, --Aubrey Plaza because really , all you need is four players of that much skill and that much "history on screen" to make the story worth watching.

They are, nonetheless, surrounded with a lot of lesser known actors(well, to ME) who hold up their end. For instance, the couple with whom Aubrey Plaza and her husband hang out are played by two extremely attractive actors(easy on the eyes) who also effortlessly pull off one of those rich couples (think Daisy and Tom Buchanan in The Great Gatsby) who cluelessly and uncaringly ruin other people's lives (well, maybe its not THAT clueless...they like to hurt others.) Again, the series makes the point that these two almost can't HELP their attitude: they are rich(hedge funds for him), they are gorgeous, they don't HAVE to bow to anyone.

Sidebar: Michael Imperioli's movie executive turns out to be a "sex addict"(self-proclaimed) and one sees why: in Hollywood, men can make so MUCH money that buying hookers(and "regular" women) is just too easy. Regular Joes working paycheck to paycheck can't drop $1000 on a hooker too often, if at all. Movie men AND women have the money to do it all the time -- just like movie men AND women have all the money they need to buy all the drugs they need at all the prices they must pay." This isn't true JUST to Hollywood people of course, but they are kind of oversexed to begin with, often come from poverty and go nuts with money to spend. Movie producer Lynda Obst observed: "You can't succeed in the movie business without getting rich. Nobody who gets into it earns a normal wage."

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Sidebar: Hey, one of those Haim sisters -- Este Haim, the eldest who does the comic Bette Midler/Lisa Kudrow schtick -- got a big press release about being a(if not THE) "music coordinator" on White Lotus Season 2.

But I didn't see her name in the credits. Turned out to be a bit of a scam.

Este Haim IS the only Haim sister with college degrees-- from the prestigious University of California at Los Angeles. Music degrees. So The White Lotus press release "sold" that. Well, it turns out that Este Haim didn't do THAT much. She got a vacation to Sicily to hang with the cast while she "advised and taught" the young actress playing one of the two hookers(well, one and a half hookers) who plays the piano on the show. Hey, no harm, no foul. Este Haim got a nice vacation, did SOME musical advising, and got promoted to a higher level.

Sidebar: about those two young hookers. It was weirdly established that one of them IS clearly and willingly available to sell her body for a price. But the other one never quite commits to the lifestyle, which confuses some men at the hotel(one in particular) and keeps the woman "in limbo" for the duration of the season. Eventually, she is quite willing to have sex with an older man -- and then an older woman -- for career advancement, if not pay. But...what's the difference?

As to the "real" hooker -- SPOILER -- it turns out that the "killer pimp" who terrorizes her was a Big Lie, a friend whom she uses to fool Michael Imperiolli's son in giving her a big payout to escape the pimp. Nope, the young guy(Stanford-educated!) gets played for 50,000 of his FATHER's money and...OK. BUT:

...doesn't that hooker have to have a REAL pimp? Don't they ALWAY have pimps? I was a bit confused, this hooker is an "independent agent"? I guess they can be. Little do I know.

Sidebar: Season One in Hawaii had a gay male hotel manager. Season Two in Sicily has a gay female hotel manager. Duly noted...some sort of message there?

CON

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

And finally a flashback to Season One and a reason I liked it less than Season Two. (SPOILERS for BOTH.)

Near the very end of Season One , the gay male hotel manager has had it with the rich Mama's Boy guy who has been hassling him about everything(mainly rooms, but other things.)

To get revenge, hotel manager sneaks into the rich kid's room and, er, "defecates" into the open suitcase that the rich kid is about to pack to leave. Its quite a graphic defecation -- prosthetics were no doubt used and me, I just don't NEED scenes like that for entertainment. Is not one reason the movie Babylon recently flopped because IT had scenes of urination and defecation? Let's stick to the sexual body functions.

SPOILER: In White Lotus 1, the hotel manager is "accidentally" stabbed to death by the rich kid and ...the rich kid gets off(self defense against a man in his hotel room.) All very frustrating and unsatisfactory and "capped off" by the crapping scene that comes before.

THIS, ultimately is probably why I preferred Season Two. No defecation. Bad guys lose. More appealing actors(though I really like the actor who played the hotel manager in 1.)

Well, I guess that covers it. The White Lotus is hot right now and I' m guessing that they get even BIGGER stars for the next season.

I'm there...with reservations.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

[A]t the end of The White Lotus Season One(the Hawaii one), Jennifer Coolidge -- playing the same character -- did something "low level evil" to the African-American hotel masseuse who was banking on Coolidge to bankroll her salon.

Variety is reporting the gal (Natasha Rockwell) that Tanya (Jennifer Coolidge) did wrong to at the end of Season 1 is going to return in Season 3, presumably as a promoted employee of the new season's resort set in Thailand).

https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-white-lotus-natasha-rothwell-season-3-1235556641/

Show-runner, Mike White is a clever dude, and it's fascinating to see him work to give a show that's basically an anthology into a continuing story. Ryan Murphy has had various Anthology shows (American Horror Story, American Crime Story, Feud), which never figured out how to do this properly and all have had trouble parlaying the success of their best seasons into continued viewership. White may have gently cracked how to do this.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

[A]t the end of The White Lotus Season One(the Hawaii one), Jennifer Coolidge -- playing the same character -- did something "low level evil" to the African-American hotel masseuse who was banking on Coolidge to bankroll her salon.

Variety is reporting the gal (Natasha Rockwell) that Tanya (Jennifer Coolidge) did wrong to at the end of Season 1 is going to return in Season 3, presumably as a promoted employee of the new season's resort set in Thailand).

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Aha..Thailand...I think there were some "bets on the net" that Thailand might be the next location.

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https://variety.com/2023/tv/news/the-white-lotus-natasha-rothwell-season-3-1235556641/

Show-runner, Mike White is a clever dude, and it's fascinating to see him work to give a show that's basically an anthology into a continuing story.

---

Yes. Starting with Season One, an "evil doer"(Coolidge) was punished in Season Two and now her victim will be promoted in the hotel chain in Season Three -- though thus far, those poor hotel managers have had a helluva time with their rich charges.

That said, I'm not sure I'm entirely on board with a "one shot season" show turning into a multi-season drama. I had kind of sworn off "long form"(I watched a couple of Yellowstones and dropped out) and I really LIKE a story that is over and done in 7 or 8 episodes(seems to be the current length, rather than the usual 13. Except remember -- The Man From UNCLE in the 60's had 20 or more episodes per season!

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CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Ryan Murphy has had various Anthology shows (American Horror Story, American Crime Story, Feud), which never figured out how to do this properly and all have had trouble parlaying the success of their best seasons into continued viewership. White may have gently cracked how to do this.

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I've generally only liked the Murphy shows that are "up, over and done" in one season: Feud uber alles(a show with director Robert Aldrich as a character!). I liked the ACS about the Clinton/Lewinski scandal(with Edie Falco -- Carmella Soprano herself -- cleverly slipped into the Hilary Clinton role), but I've not seen the American Horror Stories.

I know that Murphy likes to use Sarah Paulson over and over again, but I sampled their take on Nurse Ratched from One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest in a different format and...NO. I couldn't get through the series; I quit. It really seemed to betray the original. Kinda like Bates Motel.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

Aubrey Plaza. She's quite the hot property right now.

She was basically new to me on The White Lotus and, as I've written before, I was quite impressed. Anyhow, I've headed off now on a bit of a jag through her filmography. I've got three queued up that I've yet to see - Black Bear, Emily The Criminal, and Ned Rifle (dir. by that quirky indie director, Hal Hartley, who's been around since films such as Amateur (1994); Amateur had a hard time living up to its very memorable trailer - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GLhu37ozFx8 - but did have one of the best title sequences ever - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PRTLGga5eQg (Hartley always writes his own music under a pseudonym, 'Ned Rifle', the title of his Aubrey Plaza film! It's not the most sophisticated music in the world but I like it.).

The two Plaza films I *have* seen seem to be among her consensus best: Safety Not Guaranteed (2012) and Ingrid Goes West (2017). Neither is great but both have their moments. Safety is quite charming but is also ragged around the edges, whereas Ingrid seems to me to be more of an overall success.

Ingrid Goes West in a sense restages King of Comedy for the age of Instagram Influencers. Plaza plays the titular Ingrid whose whole live is consumed by trying to become an Instagram-sensation herself by be-friending existing Instagram-stars first online and then in the real world. To the extent she can she mimics everything about a given influencer's life and insinuates herself into that life by all sorts of inscrupulous means.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

The con job Ingrid tries to run eventually/inevitably blows up on her and she ends the film shunned, penniless, and suicidal.... except that, a la Taxi Driver and KoC, fame arrives at the last minute to save her (when her suicide attempt posted to Instagram goes viral).

Plaza is *very* believable as this psychologically deranged young woman and Elizabeth (Wanda Maximoff/Scarlet Witch) Olsen is good as her principal Influencer-victim, whose own life is revealed as not-as-rosey as she portrays in her Instagram. The whole thing's very familiar but it probably hits home more for younger-generations who might never have thought about how deranged people can be and how Instagram and other social media based around personal exposure carry within themselves lots of derangement-fuel. A solid piece of work.

Safety Not Guaranteed (2012) sees Plaza play a somewhat biting and snarky, socially awkward (still lives with her Father) recent grad from The University Of Washington in Seattle who's interning at 'Seattle Magazine'. She and another intern accompany a late-30s-ish reporter on assignment out to the coast to track down a fellow who placed a bizarre personals in the magazine (one that reproduces a real 1997 'fake' ad.): 'Wanted: Someone to travel back in time with me. This is not a Joke. You'll get paid when we get back. Bring own weapons. Safety not guaranteed. I have only done this once before.' They find the guy who placed the ad, and Plaza's awkward/snarky/pretty intern gets through to him by pretending to be someone who's willing to go back in time with him etc.. The Main Reporter meanwhile turns out to be happy for Plaza to get the big story while he chases up an old girlfriend at the shore (he also helps get the other intern laid - hijinks). Plaza and Time travel Crazy Guy fall in love and there's a twist we sort of see coming a mile off which I won't spoil.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

SNG is a pleasant enough way to spend 85 mins and Plaza is good as a pricklish near-beauty that might attract and be attracted to an off-beat guy who just might be Einstein. But the parallelism of the two sorts of relationship capers in the story doesn't really work or have any real point. We really should have just stuck with Plaza and her is-he-or-isn't-he-crazy guy and gone deeper with that relationship. SNG has a bit of a cult following but it struck me as just OK and that it could have been a lot better if it had less of the standard inide-rom-com-lark padding.

Anyhow, I'll conclude this Aubrey-arama when I've watched Black Bear, Emily, and Ned Rifle.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

Black Bear (2020) is the most interesting Aubrey Plaza film I've seen (the only one I'm sure I'll re-watch) - and a perfect example of how to make an impressive, memorable film for cheap in a single location, where the script and the performances are all the sfx you need. Plaza's Allison is a writer-director at a lodge/retreat to work on ideas for her next film. In the first half of the film we see her interact with the couple, Gabe and (ultra-classically, who's *that*? pretty, pregnant) Blair who own and run the retreat. A vaguely Polanskian or maybe Godardian situation ensues where the couple seems ready to blow apart with Allison the somewhat mischievious catalyst. In the second half of the film (announced with a title card) things reset to a film called 'Black Bear' being shot at the resort, That film stars Allison, has a non-pregnant Blair as a supporting player and is directed by Gabe who's now Allison's Husband of six years. On set, to get the right anguished performance out of Allison, Gabe tries to freak Allison out by leading her to believe that he's having an affair with Blair. Mischief ensues (with Blair the catalyst now), and another marriage is ready to blow. As the film concludes it's suggested that both the scenarios we've witnessed are in Allison's head or are her writing exercises (or one big writing exercise). It's all quite well done with nice performances from Plaza and Sarah Gadon (Blair). It's pretty much a must see if you like the mostly European tradition of films about film and film-makers. Plaza gets some credit here for being brave enough yet again to set herself up against an idealized beauty (who radiates both smarts and niceness as it happens) and to explore the insecurities that attend contact with that for almost all actors.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

Emily The Criminal (2022) is a pretty efficient gig-economy crime thriller (imitation-Soderberg with a bit of Dardennes Bros thrown in?), sometimes too efficient for me. For example, I wasn't able to follow the action that well at a few points and ultimately had to take things on trust, which I didn't appreciate. Even the final scene of the film where Emily restarts the credit card scam in Mexico was opaque since the film never clarified where the numbers from legit credit cards were coming from. But an earlier scene where Emily is robbed at knife-point but she retreives matters with a taser is typical: we don't actually see her regather her money (as opposed to the dog she's been sitting), rather we're left to impute that she must have. (But is it really realistic to expect the robber she's tased not to come back and kill her after he recovers from the tasing? How gritty and real was the gritty realism of this movie?) I liked all the gig-economy stuff the film gives us and the intern-exploitation subplot, and Plaza showed herself well-equipped for straight dramas of this kind.

I enjoyed Ned Rifle (2014) a lot. Hal Hartley isn't for everyone, but I'm a fan of his offbeat dead-pan schtick and this is a sequel to one of his best Henry Fool (1997) and a return to form after its odd-and-not-in-a-good-way first sequel Fay Grim (2004). Plaza fits in perfectly with a cast of Hartley regulars including Parker Posey and Martin Donovan (although sadly Posey and Plaza never have any scenes together - a real missed opportunity to have different generations of it-snark-girls face off). The film isn't readily summarizable. It's not really the place to start with Hartley, but it's pretty good Hartley.

Plaza is at her sexiest in this film. She's frequently just in underwear and she's in over-the-knees socks and a miniskirt, maximizing focus on her upper thighs, all the rest of the time. So the film's a must see if you, ahem, have a thing for Plaza.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

In sum then, I'd say that all of Black Bear, Emily The Criminal, Ned Rifle, Safety Not Guaranteed and Ingrid Goes West are worth seeing but none are classics. All are are rated above 6.0 on IMDb with SNG the highest at 6.9. I disagree with IMDb's comparative ratings. I'd put Black Bear (i.e., closest to being a classic) > Emily, Ingrid > Ned Rifle > Safety Not G.

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Holy Tomolly, Swanstep!

I'll grant you that I have taken notice that Aubrey Plaza is a current "it" girl, but I certainly haven't/couldn't..maybe wouldn't..put in the time to look at so much of her work. You do amaze me with your focus.

And OK, so I've seen her in her two "youth sex comedies," which marks me(and she IS sexy in those, and funny.) But I did see Emily the Criminal this year and I'm pretty much in agreement with you on it. And I did see her in The White Lotus and she DOES have star power in it(the actress playing the rich wife in the other couple may have more traditional beauty, but Aubrey has CHARACTER.)

I realize that I've developed my Aubrey Plaza knowledge from OCCASIONALLY watching Parks and Recreation(where I was impressed by her deadpan act even as I found it a bit easy and predictable) and catching her on talk show...clips.

Your survey of her "works" swanstep, suggests to me that Aubrey Plaza is an "indie darling" who may or may not make it to full movie stardom, but what the hell IS full movie stardom these days anyway? Perhaps HBO and indies will pay well enough...and generate fame enough...to keep Aubrey Plaza working for quite some time.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I'd say that all of Black Bear, Emily The Criminal, Ned Rifle, Safety Not Guaranteed and Ingrid Goes West are worth seeing but none are classics

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Sidebar. Swanstep while you were treating yourself to an "Aubrey Plaza film festival," I managed to use some of my free time to "catch up" on some movies that I never saw and to re-watch a couple of favorites.

I elected to watch Bob Hoskins two great British gangster films of the 80's: "The Long Good Friday" and "Mona Lisa" (for which Hoskins scored a Best Actor Oscar nom.) Michael Caine was in Mona Lisa. In his bio, Caine claims when he and Hoskins started work on Mona Lisa, Caine said to Hoskins: "Well, I was in one of the greatest British gangster films -- Get Carter -- and YOU were in one of the greatest British crime films, The Long Good Friday -- and here we are working together so we might make ANOTHER great British crime film. They did, sort of.

I read some reviews of Mona Lisa and found Pauline Kael saying of Caine in it: "I can't think of another star of Caine's stature playing such a despicable character." So you see, he certainly got into Bob Rusk range MANY times after turning down that role. (Caine is a gang boss and "captain of pimps" who makes underling Hoskin's life hell.)

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CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I sort of wasted time on a 1971 trash soap opera called Doctors Wives. But it had some fascinating angles to its badness:

The Psycho connection: Dyan Cannon beats Janet Leigh for early exit from a movie with good billing. Cannon talks slutty villainess sex talk in the first scene of the movie, and gets murdered in the second scene( and she's not even IN the second scene -- its a body double. So Dyan Cannon bascially only does one scene in Doctors Wives.)

Amazing: Gene Hackman is in Doctors Wives, released in 1971, the same year he won Best Actor for The French Connection (and he made ANOTHER horrible movie in '71, called The Hunting Party.)

Amazing: The terrible script for Doctors Wives is by Daniel Taradash, and amazingly, in 1971, Taradash was the PRESIDENT OF THE MOTION PICTURE ACADEMY and introduced a returning Charlie Chaplin on the same Oscar stage where Gene Hackman won his Best Actor trophy. And Hitchcock never won an Oscar and none of his greatest screenplays won, either. Taradash did win an Oscar for adapting From Here to Eternity, which is actually kind of Doctors Wives 1953, except good.

---

I watched "Glory" from 1989. Swanstep mentioned the brief star career of pretty boy Cary Elwes elsehwere(I"ve gotta find that thread again) and Elwes DOES get over-the-title billing in Glory along with Matthew Broderick(as the white comander of a black Civil War division), Denzel Washington, and Morgan Freeman.

Its 1989 and a young Denzel is winning his first Oscar, and Freeman is giving us an early look at his "noble but wry and pragmatic" thing(this shortly after Oscar consideration as a vicious pimp in Street Smart.) Broderick does well in his high-pressure part(He was a man who looked like a teenager and made the most of it in WarGames, Ferris Bueller, and this.) Elwes is...not bad. But not a star.

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CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

A couple of "re-looks":

I gave Doctor Zhivago its long, long , LONG look. My parents took me to see that on release as a kid -- to get an education -- and it bored the hell out of me then. Not so bad to watch NOW, but I'm amazed to see that it evidently did Jaws/Star Wars business in its time. Why? The love story? Its not-so-epic scope? A curiosity about Communism? Supposedly, it was big with college students -- they must have been a more intellectual bunch back then. I'll say this: he may have been an Ultra-Ham, but the movie only really comes to life when Rod Steiger is on screen.

The Taking of Pelham 123. My man Walter Matthau faces off with Martin Balsam. Two character men -- one became a star, one stayed a top character man. Matthau versus evil villain Robert Shaw is a master class in cool, quiet deadpan and great voices. The 2009 remake was way too "busy" and loud, with John Travolta taking the crazy up to 11. Robert Shaw was SO much better and cooler -- and I often like Travolta.

I flashed back on my actually SEEING The Taking of Pelham 123 first run in the fall of 1974. I wanted to see it, I was a Walter Matthau fan, I liked him in thrillers(Charade, Mirage, Charley Varrick.) But truly...I can only BARELY remember sitting in the theater seeing THAT movie the first time, I much more remember all the great re-viewings on VHS, cable, and DVD. Still...I DID see it first run. A long time ago. A nice memory.

Streaming gets a bad rap on "content," but all those movies of our lives...not bad.

PS. HBO Max and its TCM hub have REMOVED North by Northwest from availability. Where has it gone? I hope we don't lose it!

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

I finally got around to seeing Season 2 of The White Lotus, so I can contribute to this thread at last.

I definitely enjoyed it a lot less than I did Season 1. Season 2, for me, was almost unrelievedly bleak, and in some respects it hit me a little too close to the bone. My life hasn't exactly been like Ethan & Harper's but it had relationships that rhymed with theirs and I had a college frenemy like Theo who *got* every girl I was ever interested in just because he could. That whole two-couple story bummed me out and I ended up hating every one of them.

The whole gay-conspiracy plot against Jennifer Coolidge's Tanya and incidently against her assistant Portia was ingenious but also a super-downer (one of the joys of travelling particularly when you are young is just lucking in to a freewheeling, exciting crowd that you can run with for a little while - did we really need a parable about how one of those fun crowds might actually try to kill you or even eat you (which is where I feared the was going at one point)?) Portia doing nothing to alert authorities, or even just the Hotel with her suspicions, once she's dumped at the airport is insane and unforgiveable. And fan-favorite Tanya falling unceremoniously to her death after having miraculously but still believably been able to shoot her way out of immediate danger was a bummer and terribly cruel. I hated Mike White for doing that and I hated him for daring to suggest that the wretched Portia might have a happy ending together with Albie.

The hookers+Italian-American family+ Hotel Manager+Pianist storyline-bundle dissatisfied me. Hotel-Manager Valentina was so broadly-drawn as a clumsy and naive character that she wasn't really believable to me. The 3 generations of Italian-American stuff also felt very broadly drawn to me, and neither F. Murray Abraham nor Chris Moltisanti got to do enough I thought. (Cont'd)

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

Their foreseeably disastrous, translator-free meeting with distant, peasant relatives struck me as weird. Surely they would have tried to find another translator after Lucia bailed on them if this was going to be a climax for their trip? F Murray Abraham's speech after this disaster about there were 'no homecomings' in his life now felt gimmicky to me and reeked of just being a device to get him down to the bar so he could interact by himself with sex-flexible pianist-singer-wannabe Mia.

Lucia and Mia's successful scamming of Albie and Mia succesfully insinuating herself into becoming the in-residence pianist-singer had a kind of charm I suppose but the overall dog-eat-dog-ness of this storyline again just made it a bummer for me. The vision of *their* success on the one hand and of Theo and Daphne's (we are invited to see as) successfully adapted, constructed-for-the-long-haul marriage on the other hand was just too ghastly for me to contemplate at length. There was no equivalent this time around of the neglected kid who ends up rowing away joyfully from his family and destiny to find his own destiny and explore Polynesia.

A lot of Season 2 followed the formulas of Season 1 (e.g. all the cut-aways to decor and to macro-environmental features) but familarity bred a little contempt in me. And, let's face it, the traditionally photo-genic location of Sicily just is a more conventional choice filmically. Hawaii's polynesian exoticness felt fresher to me. Of course, it was still a great looking show this time around, and the formulas that White has got down pat now are a thing of genius. White's vision reminds me a bit of Chabrol now. Chabrol's films often express incredibly sour views of human nature, marriage, men and women, and Chabrol's characters almost always disappoint you if you expect anything noble. For this reason, most people have to ration their intake of Chabrol - too much at once and it not only becomes repetitive but also just too depressing to be psychologically healthy. White is the same way for me perhaps. Season 2 was great in its own terms but it left me feeling horrible/queasy and I'm probably going to avoid any Season 3 unless I hear it's something a bit different.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I finally got around to seeing Season 2 of The White Lotus, so I can contribute to this thread at last.

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Well, I just slapped that bio ol' MAJOR SPOILERS on my post and waited to see if maybe someday someone might watch Season 2 and respond And just the right person did -- the one who saw Season 1.

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I definitely enjoyed it a lot less than I did Season 1.

--

D'oh! I should have figured, but again, that's OK. I liked Season 2 better than Season 1 for the reasons I articulated (mainly the cast, the sex, and the Sicily setting) but here's the thing. After a fair amount of reflection, I have determined that I pretty much DIDN'T LIKE The White Lotus "series" -- EITHER two seasons -- AT ALL.

I am trying with a certain amount of effort to not be labelled "too old for current culture" and shuffled off to my iceberg. I have dutifully made sure simply not to participate in music "not of my age" and movie-wise, I've come to realize that Marvel IS the driving force of a young generation but...one reaches a point where one knows "other things were better than what we are getting here." A LOT of things from the last 6 decades of movies and TV are better than The White Lotus. Its 10 Emmy wins are inconsequential to me, and the show is shallow, mean, and lightweight.

This fellow Mike White is quite the success right now, but as showrunners go(and I'd say this about Ryan Murphy too) they are more Aaron Spelling than William Wyler(hey, I could have said Alfred Hitchcock -- but he really was in a class by himself.) I looked over White's resume and -- "Chuck and Buck" was a noteable indie as I recall(but hardly a hit) and...then what? School of Rock? Funny enough a long time ago. Anything else? No, I'd say that White has just gotten his moment late -- a talked about hit that draws name talent (not so much in Season One, a lot in Season Two) and...gets to be big for awhile.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Season 2, for me, was almost unrelievedly bleak, and in some respects it hit me a little too close to the bone. My life hasn't exactly been like Ethan & Harper's but it had relationships that rhymed with theirs and I had a college frenemy like Theo who *got* every girl I was ever interested in just because he could. That whole two-couple story bummed me out and I ended up hating every one of them.

---

Yep. I"ve never much bought into "two couple vacationing together" in fact OR fiction (a vacation is supposed to be an ESCAPE from even your frenemies) and this version had a key predictable element: the nerdly(and "ethnic") shy guy and his superhandsome condescending old college buddy who always stole his girls. (My solution for that in college was to NOT HAVE a superhandsome buddy, go it alone with the girls. Or hang with the superhandsome buddy only among other guys in a group.) And the handsome guy's wife was gorgeous and vapid, allowing the whole foursome to "default" to our designated star of this story: Aubrey Plaza, the supernova around whom the other three just made time.

Still, the overall "pain" of that Aubrey Plaza storyline -- plus a bit of "did they or didn't they?" have sex among some of the characters -- left unproved -- made it hard viewing indeed. (And yet I know, the daily soap operas of America THRIVE on this stuff, and again, I'm an outsider there, too.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

And fan-favorite Tanya falling unceremoniously to her death after having miraculously but still believably been able to shoot her way out of immediate danger was a bummer and terribly cruel

--

But wait, it remains my contention that "fan favorite"(which is TRUE) Tanya actually concluded Season 1 as a very evil villain in a particularly evil way. Consequently, "in the moment," I was excited when she shot her way through all her potential killers but...rather SATISFIED that the evil witch of Season One(whose "density" was part of her villainy, she didn't CARE about other people) met death in so ironic a manner.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

(one of the joys of travelling particularly when you are young is just lucking in to a freewheeling, exciting crowd that you can run with for a little while - did we really need a parable about how one of those fun crowds might actually try to kill you or even eat you (which is where I feared the was going at one point)?)

--

EAT? Ha, I missed that. But your point is well taken: we've perhaps had too many tales that converted what could be a wonderful , non-dangerous experience in real life into a suspense story where "you should never trust strangers." Heck, Hitchcock made a million of these -- I always felt his "worst case scenarios" helped make paranoids of us all (DON'T talk to that guy on the train, DON"T stay at that guy's motel, DON"T agree to stay in the flat of that nice British guy...etc.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

The hookers+Italian-American family+ Hotel Manager+Pianist storyline-bundle dissatisfied me. Hotel-Manager Valentina was so broadly-drawn as a clumsy and naive character that she wasn't really believable to me.

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Well, the bottom line and "mean" story within that stuff was how the "non-hooker girl" STILL used her sexual wiles to pursue a piano bar job at the hotel, and after offering herself up to the male piano player (and almost killing him with the wrong Viagra) shifted her sex targeting to the lesbian manager -- who fired the man and gave the job to the girl. That's pretty mean, that's pretty real-life and -- this Mike White guy has a pretty bleak (but true) take on human behavior.

You know, I may make these posts as an "older person," but I have BEEN a younger person and I've witnessed a lot of things in real life over the decades of my life and career and -- yeah, these things happen. No matter what the "public politics" are of Metoo and other things, I think we have all seen men and women advance though personal ties, and perhaps some of us have had the approach made. Its life. Real life, grown up life, and perhaps as mean as it was to see on The White Lotus(the non-hooker girl pretty much used and discarded a man and a woman in her quest for a good job in a ritzy hotel where she could meet rich people) well...that's life. (I thought that was a good gag, too: the girl who insisted she was NOT a hooker -- pretty much WAS.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

The 3 generations of Italian-American stuff also felt very broadly drawn to me,

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Broadly drawn = Mike White. Above his talent level and striving.

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and neither F. Murray Abraham nor Chris Moltisanti got to do enough I thought.

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Well, true enough, but the pleasure(for me) was in seeing them(memories of The Sopranos and Amadeus just FELT good) and listening to their voices, etc.

Still, I think Imperioli's character had perhaps more of a storyline of depth if you think about it. HIS sexual addiction(ie money to pay for women all the time at whatever price) led him to bring the hooker woman into his bedroom, and then to allow BOTH women the privileges of the hotel over the objections of the manager(which put the non-hooker girl on course to connect with the manager), and then to have to SHARE the young hooker with his own SON (embarrassing, that, I thought) even as he seemed to be attempting some sort of reconciliation with his wife that his son helped facilitate FOR A PRICE --$50,000 to the hooker, down the drain. Ol' Michael Imperioli(and his cash) drove a lot of the story and left him pretty embarrassed at the end, I thought. (Though hey, maybe he'll get back together with his wife. Yeah, right.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Their foreseeably disastrous, translator-free meeting with distant, peasant relatives struck me as weird. Surely they would have tried to find another translator after Lucia bailed on them if this was going to be a climax for their trip?

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I think its White falling down on the job again, writing. Its a GIVEN that without a translator and no shared language...this is what happens.

Way back in 1969 or so, there was a movie about American tourists in Europe called "If its Tuesday It Must Be Belgium" and a scene with American Murray Hamilton trying to talk to an Italian shoemaker without knowing the language: "If you could put leather-O on the shoe-O, I will pay you money-O." Not funny then, not funny now.

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F Murray Abraham's speech after this disaster about there were 'no homecomings' in his life now felt gimmicky to me and reeked of just being a device to get him down to the bar so he could interact by himself with sex-flexible pianist-singer-wannabe Mia.

---

I already can't remember: did he have a shot at her or not? Perhaps they just commiserated over the years where sex leaves one's toolbox to handle life.

---
Lucia and Mia's successful scamming of Albie and Mia succesfully insinuating herself into becoming the in-residence pianist-singer had a kind of charm I suppose but the overall dog-eat-dog-ness of this storyline again just made it a bummer for me. The vision of *their* success on the one hand and of Theo and Daphne's (we are invited to see as) successfully adapted, constructed-for-the-long-haul marriage on the other hand was just too ghastly for me to contemplate at length.

---

Dog-eat-dog. Yep. I do think that Hollywood's OWN very vicious dog-eat-dog business lifestyle seems to be "leaking out" into their tales more and more these days. All of these people are users-- and they pretty much all win.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

here was no equivalent this time around of the neglected kid who ends up rowing away joyfully from his family and destiny to find his own destiny and explore Polynesia.

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That was perhaps the one "nice" strand out of the equally bleak first season of The White Lotus, but I found even that a little suspect. How long would that kid really LAST with those islanders? I see him doing it for awhile, getting bored and scared...and going home to mom and dad.

I DO like the credit sequences of the series, and the credit music(its all very rich and exotic turning slowly to violence and evil) and the locales were certainly easy on the eyes as were many of the young actors(the ladies for me, the men for the ladies, and gay men and gay ladies, etc.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Season 2 was great in its own terms but it left me feeling horrible/queasy and I'm probably going to avoid any Season 3 unless I hear it's something a bit different.

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Oh, these things tend to stay on "one track" -- this one is "aren't all those rich people terrible or buffoons to be taken?" I may try Season 3 if the cast is good.

But I can't say I like it. I've been watching a LOT of streaming TV these days pretty much just to kill time and make nice with my companion. Its funny -- I'm watching "older" series from years ago and they seem like they are happening NOW and then I realize : "No, this show was on in 2017, years before COVID...what was I doing back then?")

Examples include The Sinner, Sharp Objects(truly offensive post-credits sequence showing child murders), Pieces of Her, that one with Kate Winslet on HBO, The Watcher(THAT was recent, with Jennifer Coolidge doing her Jennifer Coolidge thing -- its gettin' OLD) and one that I finally put my foot down on: "You." In which the bad guy keeps winning. I finally said I won't watch that series anymore. Imagine a version of Frenzy where Bob Rusk just kept raping and killing and nobody caught him and then Frenzy 2 came out and Rusk kept raping and killing and STILL nobody caught him? THAT's how some of these series play.

As old shows go, I DO like Justified, with its amiable fast-shooting actual good guy of a lead, surrounded by richly acted villains.

I've outlived my time....but I'm not going anywhere.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

But wait, it remains my contention that "fan favorite"(which is TRUE) Tanya actually concluded Season 1 as a very evil villain in a particularly evil way. Consequently, "in the moment," I was excited when she shot her way through all her potential killers but...rather SATISFIED that the evil witch of Season One(whose "density" was part of her villainy, she didn't CARE about other people) met death in so ironic a manner.

Your point here is a good one, one that your seeing Season 1 and Season 2 at the same time has allowed you to perceive clearly. Those of us who saw Season 1 on release seem to have a had a hard time *remembering* the twist of Tanya's callousness and cruelty (or is it just thoughtlessness and self-involvement? or is there much of a difference?) near the end of Season 1. Something about Jennifer Coolidge's willingness to be ridiculous and even grotesque triggers intense feelings of compassion towards her character in the audience by Season 2 (certainly it did in me) so I forget her nastiness and was free be appalled by her death, when, you're right, the show itself has a tougher view of her.

Mike White's writing is powerful in this structural/architectonic way. But he also gets lots of little things right. I was *dazzled* by a lot of the writing for Daphne (Megan Fahey (sp?)). Her scenes where she's explains first to Harper (Plaza) and later to Ethan how and why she keeps her marriage together amazed me. There's one point in particular where she shows Harper a picture of her kids on her phone after faking that she's going to show a picture of something else that I especially loved. This was like peak Mad Men/Sopranos writing. But, as we've discussed there are are other points, perhaps where some plot-mechanics are involved, where White seemingly can't be bothered to completely work it out, where the writing drops down a level or two.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Your point here is a good one, one that your seeing Season 1 and Season 2 at the same time has allowed you to perceive clearly. Those of us who saw Season 1 on release seem to have a had a hard time *remembering* the twist of Tanya's callousness and cruelty (or is it just thoughtlessness and self-involvement? or is there much of a difference?) near the end of Season 1.

--

Well, it was somewhat predictable in Season 1...Tanya imposed upon the (minority) massage woman not only to serve her , but to "become her friend"(Tanya's very needy, her mother has died) and kept holding out the prospect of financing the massage person's salon. And near the end, not NEEDING the other woman anymore, Tanya just blew her off and added(as I recall) an insult about how "I don't really need any more transactional relationships" -- meaning "I don't want to owe you for being my friend." Mean, callous...low level evil. Which is what I kind of feel The White Lotus is "about."

Indeed...because I can certainly "swing too broadly" in my posts around here...maybe I'll backtrack a bit on Mike White's talent and concede that SOME of his writing is quite good, quite insightful, ALMOST Mad Men level at times (more Mad Men than Sopranos, which relied on violence and working class mob guys more than the rarefied world here.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Something about Jennifer Coolidge's willingness to be ridiculous and even grotesque triggers intense feelings of compassion towards her character in the audience by Season 2 (certainly it did in me)

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Sure -- she became a "fan favorite."

There is also this, proven time and time again with "long term" series: a "bad person" can transform over time into such a good person that you FORGET the earlier version. And...people can change. (Example on Mad Men: the weaselly Pete Campbell, who grew to become a better and more compassionate man as he aged.)

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so I forget her nastiness and was free be appalled by her death,

--

And(me, conceding again) that WAS a great twist. She had managed to outfox them, shoot them, save her life and then just at the final moment of triumph, a poorly timed jump/dive...killed her. (But hey, LOTS of accidents happen trying to get on and off big boats.)

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when, you're right, the show itself has a tougher view of her.

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Well, I just think it has a tougher view of EVERYBODY. Honestly , are we supposed to feel good about ANY of the people as we know them when we leave either season?(Except for the young guy paddling away?) In real life, you either have to be rich AND tough enough to "hang" with these people - or you should avoid them entirely. THEY avoid US.

But then there is this, and it extends to Parasite, too: what IS the relationship between rich people and the less affluent people who serve them but can make good money doing so? I've read that George Clooney tips 400% on dinner bills. You can bet that people KILL to get waiter jobs at THAT restaurant. The hotel personnel, food service people and even the entertainers(the piano man) at the White Lotus must do OK enough money wise -- but to do so, they have to put up with some pretty bad behavior(like the rich mama's boy who made the Hawaii hotel manager's hell in Season One.) What is the boss/servant relationship supposed to BE?

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I found this funny about The White Lotus , Season Two: such an expensive hotel to stay at, and yet its piano bar area and entertainer seemed...pedestrian to me. Like ANY hotel. I suppose the food everybody kept going out to eat on the patio was "top notch" but the feeling I got was: "Even rich people are limited in how much luxury a hotel can give them." Its the name of the place, the exclusivity, that drives the pricing.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Mike White's writing is powerful in this structural/architectonic way. But he also gets lots of little things right. I was *dazzled* by a lot of the writing for Daphne (Megan Fahey (sp?)). Her scenes where she's explains first to Harper (Plaza) and later to Ethan how and why she keeps her marriage together amazed me.

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A gorgeous actress and very careful in her ever-calculating manner in which she explained how she makes her marriage "work."

Marriage is a tricky thing for anybody, but among the rich and gorgeous...there are all sorts of necessary complications. And -- from what I've read -- a LOT of cheating, OK as long as its not advertised. The naivity of Aubrey Plaza's husband was part of his downfall. He couldn't pull off cheating even when there was NO cheating. (I thought the famous Plaza rather overmatched that lesser known guy, but I guess he's on some other show I don't watch.)

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There's one point in particular where she shows Harper a picture of her kids on her phone after faking that she's going to show a picture of something else that I especially loved. This was like peak Mad Men/Sopranos writing. But, as we've discussed there are are other points, perhaps where some plot-mechanics are involved, where White seemingly can't be bothered to completely work it out, where the writing drops down a level or two.

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Well, Mike White is a success now. He has key awards and higher pay and...he did something right. I think I'll concede here that he writes well situations and characters I don't much care for..AND that sometimes(as with all series writers) he just can't pull it all off. They're only human..

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

PS. Usually I'm not much for "behind the scenes interviews" on these shows(everybody just praises everybody else) but I read a snippet about how the pretty young actress ..Meghan? ...was intimidated by having to act with all those more famous people like Oscar winner F. Murray Abraham, Aubrey Plaza, and Michael Imperioli. So Imperioli took her aside and said something comforting like "You have as much right to be in this acting company as everybody else here. You're good." And she felt all better.

Of course, also she LOOKS like that...