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OT: The Irishman (MAJOR SPOILERS; SPOILERS WELCOME HERE)

posted 5 years ago by ecarle (14979)
19 replies | jump to latest

I did one long post about the new Scorsese film The Irishman and endeavored to keep all spoilers out.

Here is a "discussion post" that leaves spoilers in.

Except, as I said in the other post:

BEGIN:

I think I will use another thread to do a "MAJOR SPOILERS" piece on The Irishman, but the truth of the matter is that there AREN'T many major spoilers in the film. We all know that Hoffa disappeared, so the movie is moving towards that(and then past it.) The movie shows nothing of mob involvement in the JFK assassination, but makes the usual case that the Mafia SHOULD have wanted JFK dead(he won with mob backing and his brother came after the mob.) But we've heard that story before.

END

But here goes on some spoilers, which I feel give The Irishman some added meaning and entertainment value:

ONE:

The film uses movie marquees in the background to tell film buffs what year the story is in at any given time: The 3 Faces of Eve. Party Girl.

And: The Shootist. My favorite movie of 1976, with Family Plot as a close second(Wayne's final film; Hitchcock's final film.)

And of course, both John Wayne in The Shootist and Robert DeNiro in The Irishmen are old men looking back at a life of shooting people for a living...

TWO:

There are a few Sopranos players in this film, if you look closely for them.

One, you have to look REAL close: playing the real singer Jerry Vale singing from the stage at a labor event honoring DeNiro: Steven Van Zant(sp?) He was the weird strip club owner/consigliere Silvio on the Sopranos.

Joe Pesci's wife is played by Katherine Narducci, the attractive woman who played the wife of the restaurant owner/chef on The Sopranos.

"Whispers"("No, the OTHER Whispers" is always said about him) is played by the guy who played Beansie on the show -- the guy who got run over by a car and retired to Miami.

THREE:

As The Irishman moved carefully(rather than lumbered) towards its climax, the movie I kept thinking about was "Bugsy"(1991) in which sympathetic mobster Meyer Lansky(Ben Kingsley) keeps trying to warn brash egotist gangster Bugsy Siegel(Warren Beatty) that less sympathetic mob bosses will soon order his murder if he doesn't get in line (in this case, if he doesn't stop overspending on the first Vegas casino.)

In The Irishman, Pacino's Hoffa is the brash egotist who won't get in line. DeNiro is the mob guy trying to warn him(ala Kingsley's Lansky in Bugsy) that less sympathetic mob bosses will soon order his murder if he doesn't get in line(in this case, if he doesn't top trying to take back his union by freezing pension fund loans to the mob.) The details are different , but both Bugsy and The Irishman find a climactic sadness in how somebody practically INVITES his death as a matter of pride and ego -- and at the hands of a "friend" who feels just terrible about it. But does it.

FOUR:

There are a few references to earlier Scorsese movies if you look for them(and I'll bet there are more than I saw):

A man enters a room, realizes it is empty of people who he was expecting to see...and he is shot dead.(GoodFellas.)

Jerry Vale singing(the REAL Jerry Vale sings in GoodFellas, he's dead now so Silvio does the honors -- and then an instrumental version of the song Vale sung in GoodFellas comes on the soundtrack.)

FIVE: This bit I loved, but it needs a bit of a set up:

The Godfather near the end famously has traitor Carlo get in the front passenger seat of a car and he is strangled by Clemenza, who sits in the back seat behind him. In Goodfellas, Joe Pesci sticks an ice pick into the brain of HIS front passenger seat victim, from the back seat. And early on in The Irishman, a hitman(not DeNiro) "does the Clemenza" and strangles a passenger seat guy from the back seat, too.

Well, later in The Irishman, that same "back seat strangler" is prevented from sitting in the back seat because somebody put a fish on the back seat, and it is all wet and stinky(the fish is gone.)

This leads to a very hilarious "Who's on first?" type routine about who bought the fish, why they bought the fish, what kind of fish was it("The kind of fish you EAT?" is the exasperated reply) but the mystery remains. Who put that fish there? It probably saved someone's life.

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

OK, here IS the major spoiler, because it gives The Irishman "resonance."

DeNiro is Pacino's friend and confidante and Pacino counts on DeNiro to protect him from the mob bosses who might double cross and kill him. But ultimately, mob boss Pesci orders DENIRO to kill Pacino, with the admonition: "We decided it has to be you, because otherwise you'd protect him and if you don't do it...you and I will be the ones who get killed." (He doesn't say this outright, but it is the message.)

And so DeNiro must be a "good soldier" again in his life(he's a WWII combat veteran who executed Nazi prisoners) and Pacino only gets in the car to his death ride because DeNiro IS IN THE CAR and will protect him. But of course, DeNiro WON'T protect him - he will kill him.

That's drama. And its very sad and it all comes about inexorably. DeNiro and Pesci give Pacino many a warning, they are trying to prevent the inevitable. And that's another reason DeNiro accepts the orders to kill Pacino -- he warned him.

"The Irishman" moves past the Hoffa killing (and what happens to the body) to take up what happens to DeNiro's faithful hit man as he ages past this ultimate betrayal of a friend...and he gets a big surprise: his most beloved daughter speaks to him once, and only once, in the entire movie, and never again. He will die alone in a nursing home.

---

Scorsese has been taking on the Marvel movies not only for "not being cinema" but for not having "real narrative." I think The Irishman, with all of its somewhat flawed "been there, done that" feeling...in the end proves Scorsese's point. This IS real narrative...things are about people and their relationships and ultimately a betrayal OF relationships. It means something. It will last. When most Marvel movies won't(even when they make a billion dollars worldwide.)

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

One reason I have always liked ANY Scorsese gangster movie better than I liked The Sopranos is this:

We never learned if Tony lived or died. The showrunner copped out on the ending.

And I for one wanted Tony to DIE. Or to go to prison. Or to have his end be terrible in some way.

The Sopranos never gave us that satisfaction. But Scorsese's theme from GoodFellas to Casino to The Departed(and in a non-lethal way, The Wolf of Wall Street) is that the bad guys DO lose. Maybe to law enforcement and prison, but often at their the hands of their fellow mobsters, by brutal violence.

GoodFellas and Casino conclude with the mob murdering its own("Why take a chance?" says an old mobster in Casino about possible stoolies), The Departed ends with all the bad guys dead(and, alas, some good guys.)

And "The Irishman" introduces any mob character with his fate:

"Jimmy Castellano(Shot 8 times in the back of the head, May 6, 1979)"

or

"Tommy Udo(strangled in his car, January 5, 1980)

Etc.

They are pretty much ALL slated to die violently eventually. Except one guy:

"Billy Nannini. Well liked by all. Died of natural causes, June 2, 1985."

(I made up all the names and dates.)

Its a corollary to a movie released earlier this year -- "Cold Pursuit" was it? with Liam Neeson, where every mob character died with a religious symbol, their name and their lifespan dates. A reminder in both movies that...the end comes. But violently for mob people, in the main. And too soon for them, too.

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

swanstep has written:

In particular the hour from Hoffa getting out of jail to his getting whacked could (I think, I'd need a second viewing to be sure) be montaged down to about 20 minutes.

---

Here, we differ. To me , that particular segment of the movie is where "all the good stuff is." Including the best scene in the movie.

But I think I will move this discussion to the "MAJOR SPOILER thread" to get into it...

..and so here I am.

The best scene in the movie, for me, is the one where Hoffa tries to have a "truce meeting" with the Italian-American gangster "Johnny Pro" (or was it "Jimmy Pro") in the Florida "room"(restaurant? Its empty, there are no servers at the table where four men sit.) Scorsese must think so too, this was one of only two "clips" sent out to promote The Irishman thus far.

Its mainly a funny scene but always tinged with the latent rage and monstrousness of mob-based men.

This is funny: the scene is "about" Al Pacino and the actor playing Pro: Stephen Graham. They are the "big men" in the scene. Thus, DeNiro is relegated to sitting at the table with his "double" -- another "inconsequential body guard back up man " -DeNiro here takes on the role of SUPPORT to Pacino(and it fits him quite well, hah.) This is funny , too: DeNiro and his "double" spend most of the scene desperately trying to calm down their principals (Hoffa, Pro), to keep them at the table to get the agreement made. ("C'mon, c'mon...let's just have the meeting.")

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

The "spine" of the scene is that Hoffa is there to get Pro's endorsement to re-take his union leadership job, but Pro is there to first get an apology out of Hoffa for a racial slur in prison ("You people" -- always bad.)

But of course Hoffa will NEVER apologize, and of course Pro will NEVER give that endorsement, so the scene just deteriorates(hilariously) from there, with lines like this near the raucous ending:

Pro: So you think I'm beneath you?
Hoffa: (Thinks about it.) Definitely.
(Pro seethes).
Hoffa:(Continuing, out of control) You motherfucker wop cocksucker!

(I had to. Language of this nature can be used JUST RIGHT and its funny and it declares war.)

Pro: Well, I'll endorse you after I kidnap your granddaughter , slice her open and send her organs to you in an envelope!

(And the physical fight begins.)

All that violent stuff at the end comes only after the long, sweet build-up to it, over "how late is late"("ten minutes" "fifteen minutes, you gotta account for traffic" "ten minutes because I DO account for traffic") and what is appropriate to wear for a meeting in Florida -- a suit or shorts?

Its a great, great scene, and give it a few years, it'll be a classic quoted a lot, like "Get your shoe shine box" or "I'm funny? HOW am I funny?"). Pacino shows off his "movie star schtick" (how he hits his "T's" at the end of a sentence; his little choked-off laugh, the musical quality of his voice), Stephen Graham has that "Sopranos" feel(his face is a little too nice; it betrays his interest in gutting a guy's granddaughter) and DeNiro does his "DeNiro thing"(quiet, not quite bright) in gracious support (kudos to that fourth man at the table -- he doesn't get much to do, but he does it well.)

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

I'm still on how the Hoffa from prison-to-death part works the best(to me) and I'll move to what I think is the set-piece of dialogue in the movie: the big dinner show to honor DeNiro's character(on his retirement? on his union achievements?)

First of all, EVERYBODY's there: DeNiro and Pacino(up on the dais) -- Pesci and Keitel and Johnny Pro and Fat Tony(of whom Pacino says "Tony? WHICH Tony? EVERYBODY'S named Tony with you guys -- you can't think of another name to name your kids?") and Ray Romano and Anna ("the silent daughter") Paquin --this is the " Godfather I wedding scene" of The Irishman and it leads up to TWO major dialogue scenes, built around the same theme: two men(Pesci and then DeNiro) TRYING to convince Pacino to back down, release the pension loans to the Mob, show some humility.)

Pesci goes first, with a certain caring but business-like manner. I think this is were Pacino does some of his great roaring schtick the first time("Don't you understand? Its MY union! MY union!")

DeNiro is sent second with the more brutal news: Back off or get killed (never said, it turns into "it is what it is" --hey, was that a 70s phrase?)

And this exchange:

DeNiro: Do you hear what I'm sayin' to you?
Pacino: Sure. They're threatening me!
DeNiro: No...its past that.

I like that. I also like Pacino's explosive "They wouldn't DARE!" on the realization that a hit is promised. Odd to me: Hoffa says they won't kill him because he has documents socked away for release that will rat them out if he is killed("I know things that THEY don't know I know.") . I don't remember any such material ever being released?

What's great in this extended scene at the DeNiro event, is seeing Pesci(for the first time ever) share a scene with Pacino and then DeNiro(yet again in their careers) share a scene with Pacino and its that stuff I love the most at the movies anymore: great actors saying great lines with great fervor. The Irishman comes to life here for me -- second best only to that Florida meeting scene(a CLASSIC, that one is, mark my words.)

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

And of course the scene at the DeNiro honorary dinner is about how two men who actually LIKE Hoffa(Pesci and DeNiro) DO try to warn him and calm him down and -- it doesn't work. It CAN'T work. Hoffa's like Caesar and those other guys who just "had to go." From here on out in the movie, Pesci commits(first) and DeNiro(second) to the killing of Hoffa ("We did everything we could for the man," notes Pesci with genuine sadness.)

One other noteable scene(to me at least, particularly on a second viewing) is the one with Keitel and Pesci in a booth with DeNiro as mob boss Keitel basically tells DeNiro that he has "a good friend" in Pesci because that's the only reason he won't get killed by "the Jew mob" for trying to burn down one of their operations. Keitel is great in the scene -- the only scene where he really gets to SAY something(including the great line "now is not the time to not know") -- and all his Scorsese and QT work comes back there. And PESCI is great, sitting saying nothing but watching intently and realizing that now he OWNS DeNiro.

Side-bar: I watched GoodFellas the other day and during that funny scene where DeNiro, Pesci and Liotta meet with Scorsese's mother for a late night dinner, the scene is all laughs except at one point, Pesci just stares daggers at Liotta, for no apparent reason at all. I connect THAT scene(silent Pesci looking) with THIS scene(silent Pesci looking) and...boy can that guy LOOK at you scarily.

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

So for me, the stretch from Hoffa's release from prison to the hit on him(which includes the hilarious "where did you buy that fish?" scene en route to tragedy) is the best part of The Irishman. After all, we lose Pacino after Hoffa is killed,so the movie kind of deflates right there. We are left with DeNiro and Pesci growing old ; one dies, one lives on in old age.

And I suppose that a point made by The Irishman is that while Pesci (during the film) and DeNiro(after the film) died of natural causes as old men, their mob life put them in prison for crucial late life years, they stole their lives away from themselves. And ended up(says the movie) very lonely, unloved men. Scorsese is merciless, I so WISH he'd been given Tony Soprano's life to take or ruin.

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

swanstep wrote:

The de-aging tech was OK apart from the fact that de-aged DeNiro never once convinces as an actual 30-something human being.

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Yes, in that early flashback where Pesci helps fix his truck, DeNiro has black hair(which could have been dyed black even without CGI) and our first real look at the oddly glowing faces that the "de-aging process gives one."

---

Honestly, old age makeup has been perfected since at least The Exorcist. A better film would have cast age-appropriately for the '50s segments & then done aging makeup from there.

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Its hard to say. If I get this right, you can "age" a young DeNiro with old age make-up if you cast Young DeNiro as Old DeNiro(see 47-year old Marlon Brando as 60-something Don Vito in The Godfather; or DeNiro himself aged over the course of "Once Upon a Time in America")) but the choice used to have to be hiring lookalike young actors for young scenes and then replacing them with established old stars. (In The Green Mile, old age make-up on Tom Hanks didn't work so they put Dabbs Greer in Hanks' old-age scene.)

In "The Departed" early years-ago sequences with Jack Nicholson were accomplished by having the actor dye his hair black and then filming him in shadow, and from behind. Even though you notice that -- it seemed to be a less expensive way to get the same effect.

---

As it was, '50s scenes with Keitel, Pesci and De Niro were disorienting since everyone reads as some crazy shade of aged. I had to pause and find out online how old everyone was supposed to be to calibrate.

---I think the weird thing in "The Irishmen" is that the "de-aged actors" never seem very young at all, just glowing, smoother versions of their old selves. I got used to it though.

And I'm pretty sure that NOBODY is de-aged in the best scenes in the movie: the Florida meeting; the DeNiro honorary event and dialogues within...its almost as if the de-aging is used exclusively in the less-interesting parts of the movie (less the Keitel scene early on.)

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

For me The Irishman felt a little too familiar on a basic story level: Goodfellas after all follows a half-Irish guy into the mob, and '50s, -60s mob tangling with Cuba & Casinos & Congressional hearings is Godfather 2 territory. These comparisons don't do The Irishman any favors; those films are just much more exciting, with much more colorful characters.

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Yes, I remarked on that, too. To some extent, you could say that by referencing those earlier(sadly, better) movies, it was sort of giving us a "cumulative send-off" for DeNiro, Pesci, Keitel...with Big Al there as a special guest. It IS interesting American history and who knows, with today's generation not much caring about history, maybe The Irishman is teaching them things they would never know otherwise(i.e. they never SAW Godfather II.)

But for this older experienced guy...it was pretty old hat.

The film works for me -- comes to life for me -- as so many of my favorites of the past 20 years do: in the fun and spark of the dialogue sequences. Its why so many of my favorite movies are by QT and Aaron Sorkin and the Coens...great SCRIPTS, with great LINES delivered by great ACTORS. In a film like The Irishman, its like the "story" comes in way last. (And Scorsese's other mob movies all had great scripts too -- though I can't remember who wrote them all.)

--
Not a serious Best Picture contender for me, maybe not best anything else either.

---

Well, it will be interesting. Netflix had Roma last year, but Roma didn't have the All-American studio box office flavor of The Irishman. In short, more people are going to SEE The Irishman, and from that may come the nominations. I'd say giving Pacino and Pesci at least NOMINATIONS(Actor and Supporting Actor respectively) would be fine...and hey, will the long-retired Pesci come to the Oscars if he is?

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

Best Picture? A different story. History-wise, The Irishman is sort of in "Green Book" territory, and of about the same high-middling quality.

This: there's only a month to go in 2019, by now, "in the know" folks know what the best movies of the year are. The question is: which way will the Academy go?

In recent years, the Academy has gone strongly with the critics...and with obscure films that don't make much money.

It remains to be seen to what extent "The Big Three" of 2019 -- OAITH, The Irishman, and Joker -- are SERIOUS contenders for the top award(s) or to what extent the Academy will desert them for art.

I think, swanstep, that you and I start at the same place but then diverge on OAITH and The Irishman -- we agree that they are overlong for their content and somewhat below earlier films by QT and Scorsese in terms of "classic quality."

But our divergence, I think from there, you are rather dismissive of OAITH and The Irishman -- but I move UP...to praise them, and(for now) to tie them as my favorites of the year. DESPITE what doesn't work in each film, enough DOES work for me to like them both, a lot. And more than other films I've seen this year.

Its like they said about Hitchcock around the time of Marnie and Torn Curtain: "Mediocre Hitchcock, but even mediocre Hitchcock is better than 90% of the rest of the movies out there."

Yep. Goes for these two, too. And it DOES remain something special to have a QT and a Scorsese mob movie in the same year, you ask me.

Meanwhile, back at the Oscars. It feels like it might be Brad Pitt's time. And if they put him in the "Suppporting Actor" category for OAITH, he'll get what Jack Nicholson got with Terms of Endearment and Sean Connery with The Untouchables: the interesting Oscar cred of a Best Supporting Actor Oscar to a superstar leading man in a "supporting" role ...that isn't really a supporting role at all.

[–] swanstep (2715) 5 years ago

The best scene in the movie, for me, is the one where Hoffa tries to have a "truce meeting" with the Italian-American gangster "Tony Pro"

I agree that that's a good scene but it's undercut for me by the prior scenes with Hoffa and Pro including the one that ends with a brawl in prison. That's a lot of time with knuckleheads talking in stupid code... and, really, most of the next hour is just more knucklehead code-talking. It made me appreciate again QT's more florid and literate gangsters, Tony Soprano's analyst, and other inventions to alleviate the dullness & repetitiveness of the actual, wire-resistant, evasive talk of successful long-term gangsters. Deep down, I suspect that the key scenes in The Irishman are too down on both verbal & visual flair to be classics.

One dog that did not bark from the key hour: Hoffa's threat to use files, tapes, etc. to bring down the mob if it whacks him. Most of the living mobsters do end up in jail but not as presented, because of any posthumous revenge by Hoffa.

BTW, I was intrigued by some of the Nixon stuff in the film. Hoffa's Presidential pardon was new to me. Incredible. The film also has 'Fitz', the new head of the Teamsters playing golf with Nixon and his Attor.Gen Mitchell in the early '70s. Did that happen? Searching around all I can find is Nixon in 1975, i.e., after resigning, making a rare public appearance at Fitz's own charity golf tournament (playing in a fivesome with Fitz). The NY Times covered it extensively:
https://www.nytimes.com/1975/10/10/archives/nixon-plays-golf-with-fitzsimmons-at-resort-built-with-teamster.html
Tony Pro was there, as was Allen Dorfman from the film. The Times noted that:
"After he finished his round, Mr. Nixon spent about 45 minutes in a private meeting with a number of teamster officials and others linked to the union, including Mr. Dorfman."
Far out.

Update: Here's Fitz in People in Nov. 1975 suggesting he played golf with Nixon a lot, saluting Tony Pro, and so on:
https://people.com/archive/frank-borman-vol-4-no-26/
Far out squared.

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

The best scene in the movie, for me, is the one where Hoffa tries to have a "truce meeting" with the Italian-American gangster "Tony Pro"

--

TONY Pro! I forgot he was Tony...I was trying Johnny and Jimmy...and there is that line in which "Fat Tony" is mentioned and Hoffa says "WHICH Tony?"

---
I agree that that's a good scene but it's undercut for me by the prior scenes with Hoffa and Pro including the one that ends with a brawl in prison.

--

Well, I think the Florida one is the best one...and it haunts the rest of the movie because it becomes pretty clear that Hoffa and Tony Pro will never REALLY make up...dangerous for Hoffa, given his other enemies.

--

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

That's a lot of time with knuckleheads talking in stupid code...

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Speaking of knuckleheads, I've watched The Wolf of Wall Street(or parts) a time or two over the past few weeks and I really do think it is a helluva an achievement on Scorsese's part -- he re-captures his GoodFellas/Casino flair with a new kind of story.

And we've got Rob Reiner at one point complaining to his son Leo DiCaprio about the dangers ahead with all his scams..

"And why are you working with that bunch of knuckleheads out there? I'm telling you, the chickens are going to come home to roost."

I found many a review that loved Reiner's opening scene(he's interrupted watching The Equalizer, screams curse words, takes the phone call, breaks into a phony British accent...all while Leo narrates what's going on and why, sort of) and I did too, but the REAL point is that it is part of about a seven-scene-in-a-row blitz of low comedy and sex talk...its very, very different for Scorsese AND for Leo(who rather resembles, in face, manner, and narrator's voice -- Ray Liotta in GoodFellas.)

I also found this review line: "Rob Reiner is better in this than he has been for years -- in front of , or behind , the camera."

And I found this trivia: "Alan Arkin turned down the Rob Reiner role to take Grudge Match with Sly Stallone and Robert DeNiro in Grudge Match." A big oops for Arkin and a reminder that the Great DeNiro has appeared in a lot of money-losing schlock in recent years -- the billion-dollar Joker and this Irishman thing(who knows how much it will "gross") have put him back on the map.

Anyway, The Wolf of Wall Street -- ESPECIALLY in comparison to The Irishman -- does look to be my personal winner for the 2010's...

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[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

and, really, most of the next hour is just more knucklehead code-talking. It made me appreciate again QT's more florid and literate gangsters, Tony Soprano's analyst, and other inventions to alleviate the dullness & repetitiveness of the actual, wire-resistant, evasive talk of successful long-term gangsters.

--

Well, Scorsese got there first(GoodFellas) and QT(a little bit) and The Sopranos(a lot) kind of riffed off of him(and The Sopranos cast a LOT of his players less DeNiro and Pesci and Liotta.)

Starting with GoodFellas, I think what Scorsese made sure to give us were more dumb and "animalistic" Mafia men -- QT and David Chase(and his writers) made them more articulate, but not necessariliy more real.

Meanwhile: The Sopranos -- 80 great hours of "a movie on TV" that blew the ending, bigtime.

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Deep down, I suspect that the key scenes in The Irishman are too down on both verbal & visual flair to be classics.

--

Oh, we will see. The Florida meeting scene I think works in a very nostalgic way. And it gives Pacino his "Pesci scene" , so to speak, in the Scorsese canon.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

One dog that did not bark from the key hour: Hoffa's threat to use files, tapes, etc. to bring down the mob if it whacks him. Most of the living mobsters do end up in jail but not as presented, because of any posthumous revenge by Hoffa.

--

Yes, I think I mentioned that elsewhere. Hoffa flat out tells Frank that "they" will never kill him because of all that information he has and -- it never came out? I suppose what this tells us is that when a man flat out "disappears" like Hoffa did, with no clues and no rat-witnesses, it doesn't MATTER what he had on those guys. Nothing could be pinned on them.

And I would suggest that the same "code of silence" that has left Hoffa's disap a mystery all these years MIGHT have helped get JFK killed without any mob ties exposed. (Oswald was, after all, gunned down by a junior level gangster in Jack Ruby.) I' m not looking to push conspiracy theories per se, but the mob sure "looks good" for the JFK killing and who knows what really happened. I'm just saying, if Hoffa could "disappear" with no killers found, why not the same "mystery" about JFK?

That said, I think down deep I don't think the mob would DARE(to use Pacino's phrase) go after JFK. They were used to going to prison and getting out....

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

BTW, I was intrigued by some of the Nixon stuff in the film. Hoffa's Presidential pardon was new to me. Incredible.

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Yep. I watched the Nicholson "Hoffa" the other night(its available given The Irishman being out) and both films make the point that Fitz got Hoffa the pardon...but with the condition that he not affiliate with his union! And Hoffa was due to get out in months when he took this deal not knowing of the catch!

In "Hoffa" they have Nicholson's Hoffa nearly strangle Fitz over the revelation. In "Hoffa," Fitz is played by the late JT Walsh, a less rotund man than the real Fitz but a Nicholson pal. They workded together the same year also in "A Few Good Men" and after Walsh died young of a heart attack, Jack dedicated his "As Good As it Gets" Oscar to JT Walsh.

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The film also has 'Fitz', the new head of the Teamsters playing golf with Nixon and his Attor.Gen Mitchell in the early '70s. Did that happen?

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Probably. I vaguely remember it. Let's face it -- union power was very powerful, Nixon sought it out, and if there were SOME Mafia guys attached to it -- well, they sorted out business their own way.

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Searching around all I can find is Nixon in 1975, i.e., after resigning, making a rare public appearance at Fitz's own charity golf tournament (playing in a fivesome with Fitz). The NY Times covered it extensively:
https://www.nytimes.com/1975/10/10/archives/nixon-plays-golf-with-fitzsimmons-at-resort-built-with-teamster.html
Tony Pro was there, as was Allen Dorfman from the film.

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LaCosta has long had some Mafia ties attached..and it is believed that many Mafia guys relocated to sunny San Diego either via witness protection or on their own.

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[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

The Times noted that:
"After he finished his round, Mr. Nixon spent about 45 minutes in a private meeting with a number of teamster officials and others linked to the union, including Mr. Dorfman."
Far out.

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Far out indeed. And this was AFTER Nixon resigned....I think he retained some power as a "fixer" attorney in his last decades.

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

Update: Here's Fitz in People in Nov. 1975 suggesting he played golf with Nixon a lot, saluting Tony Pro, and so on:
https://people.com/archive/frank-borman-vol-4-no-26/
Far out squared.

--

I think that link goes to Frank...Borman.

Still, yeah, far out.

[–] swanstep (2715) 5 years ago

I think that link goes to Frank...Borman.

Whoops. I knew that link looked wrong.
Here's the correct link:
https://people.com/archive/frank-fitzsimmons-vol-4-no-26/