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"Psycho" and "The Legend of Bagger Vance"

posted 5 years ago by ecarle (14979)
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MINOR SPOILERS for BAGGER VANCE

Another in my continuing series of attempts to show that "I'm not just a lover of that sick old torture-porn starting point, Psycho." I like "nice" films, too.

I was watching this Robert Redford-directed film again the other day. It is from the year 2000 -- 40 years after Hitchcock's Psycho, 2 years after Van Sant's Psycho.

The film is almost 20 years old and yet the film's three stars -- Will Smith, Matt Damon, Charlize Thereon - are still working steadily over the title today; proof that stardom CAN last(better than it did for, say, Rod Taylor) and(more chillingly) that a movie that looks like it was made "a few years ago" can be from 20 YEARS ago. The years just FLY.

It is a tale of golf, in the American South, around the Depression years . Redford directs the film in full "gleaming glistening sunlight mode" with sunrises and sunsets and ocean views and wide expanses of golf course greenery, marshes, and trees -- and the music is pure and nostalgic and clean. One is bathed in nostalgia, start to finish, and exposed to characters who, uniformly and to the very end, play the game of golf(and life) fair, treat each other with respect, and do the right thing.

Boy, is THAT a fantasy. But maybe not, I hope.

Indeed, the film took its share of hits from the notoriously cynical and downbeat critics of 2000 for just HOW upbeat it was. Will Smith took hits for being a "magical Negro" -- even though his character is the cool cat who speaks in riddles that only he knows the answers to, outthinks everybody else, and ends up looking like a direct representative of God him/herself.

I do love Smith's opening appearance as "mystical caddy Bagger Vance"-- in the dark, out of nowhere - standing in front of where ruined golfing prodigy Matt Damon has been hitting his long drives in frustrated solace:

Damon: I didn't see you -- I could have killed you!
Smith: Well, sir, I was observing you for quite some while, and I saw how accurately you were hittin' your drives. I decided as long as I stood directly in front of you, I would never get hurt.

The Legend of Bagger Vance is such a full-on, all-encompassing warm bath of nostalgia that I often put the DVD in just to feel good for awhile . I can offer no criticism of its niceness, no judgment of its characters(yes, the whites and the blacks in the tale all get along). Yes, it has a spiritual side to it -- but as much(said Redford) from Hindu faith as Christian. (When Damon claims to Smith that there is no soul and that one just dies to nothingness, Smith replies, "Really? You believe that? That is the dumbest thing I've ever heard.")

And its just the same old uplifting story(one that never gets old)-- Smith comes to pull Damon out of the darkness of his soul(WWI wrecked it) and to save himself. And to get Damon's swing back.

Special kudos to : Bruce McGill. Famously D-Day in Animal House(1978), McGill thereupon put together a 40-year career(and counting) as a fine character guy. He was a great judge in Runaway Jury, a great lawyer in The Insider, a great Elvis impersonator in Into the Night, a great cop in My Cousin Vinny, a great historical figure in Lincoln and on and on and on. Here, he's a famous golfer of the time -- a bit beefy, liking of drinks and cigars and women -- the perfect rogue to make "Bagger Vance" play a little more sassy than sweet. (I have met Mr. McGill as a spectator when he plays in celebrity golf tournaments -- he a very nice and funny player to the crowd.)

Final kudos to: Jack Lemmon. Its Jack's final film, and it opens with him playing golf all alone and falling to the ground with his "fifth heart attack in ten years." Jack will be our narrator -- his character in flashbacks is a little boy watching the action. And Jack will end the film playing that final hole with Bagger Vance(Smith) -- in Heaven. After too many years as a neurotic loser, Lemmon went out here, nicely, and sweetly, and with a little wit. Add Jack Lemmon to John Wayne in The Shootist; Henry Fonda in On Golden Pond, and Bill Holden in SOB as getting a pretty darn great and fitting final role.

"Bagger Vance" is just nice, nice, NICE. I can certainly enjoy its message about things working out as much as Psycho's message about how things can go terribly wrong. And the film's almost maniacal reliance on EVERYBODY agreeing to treating each other nicely and playing fairly -- well, I sure hope more people adhere to that credo, than not.

PS. In interviews I have looked up, Redford noted that he was at first attracted to the project so that he could ACT in it...in the Matt Damon role. But then he felt (a) the movie was too much like "The Natural" and (b) he was too old for the part. Enter Matt Damon. Redford also said -- and I believe him -- that he felt times were too nasty and combative and it was time for an uplifting story. That was in 2000. Let's see one in 2020. Its ALWAYS time for an uplifting story.

[–] [deleted] 5 years ago

Interesting.

[–] ecarle (14979) 5 years ago

Thank you.

Nice movies. Bagger Vance. The Music Man. Mary Poppins. The Natural.

One Psycho cannot a movie fan make.

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

Hi, ecarle. I have been a fan of your writing for a long, long time (I used to read your posts on the old IMDB boards). I finally took the plunge after all these years and signed up, just to finally correspond with you.

"The Legend Of Bagger Vance" is probably my all-time favorite movie. I do think it's a "flawed movie" in some ways, but I love the cinematography and the "spirituality" of this movie (I think you have to be a golfer to really get it). I really like what you wrote above and will add a few thoughts of my own:

1) In addition to Bruce McGill as Walter Hagen, I thought Joel Gretsch did a great job as Bobby Jones.
2) I also enjoyed Peter Gerety's Nescaloosa. I think he's an underrated character actor and he did a great job as well.
3) I love the historical golf references in the movie. The scene where Junuh hits the "jigger" into the wind is a tribute to Tiger's famous "Stinger." I think Hagen hitting the 3-iron on the beach on 18 alludes to Seve Ballesteros, who supposedly learned the game hitting an old 3-iron on a Spanish beach. And I think Junuh's putt on 18 was a nod to Jack Nicklaus and his putt on 16 at the 1975 Masters.

I can't believe this movie is over 20 years old now. Where has the time gone?

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

@ecarle. There's definitely a time and a place for 'nice' movies. A couple from the last few years that I can recommend: Petite Maman (a pitch perfect fantasy from Céline Sciamma), Catherine Called Birdy (well cast medieval hijinks sensitively directed by Lena Dunham currently on Amazon), and Leave No Trace (a family goes off the grid movie from Winter's Bone director Deborah Granik). I dare say too that part of Top Gun Maverick's mammoth success has been *its* incredible nice-ness.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Well, thank you very much for the response, Golfnguitars. That's meaningful to me.

---

"The Legend Of Bagger Vance" is probably my all-time favorite movie.

--

There you go. I'm always intrigued by what someone's "all time favorite movie" is. I have found, reading various chat pages on movies, that EVERY movie is SOMEONE's favorite movie. We all have something different within us that responds to a certain movie in a certain way.

Given the golf history expertise you display here, I would expect that is one reason why Bagger Vance holds such a grip on you. That's great.

---

I do think it's a "flawed movie" in some ways, but I love the cinematography and the "spirituality" of this movie (I think you have to be a golfer to really get it).

Your commentary proves to me that you really have to know golf HISTORY (famous players, famous shots) for the movie to REALLY connect. Still, it connected to me in other ways. Director Redford put it together with a real focus on "niceness" and spirituality.

That said, its been awhile since I've seen it, but I do remember some scenes of angst and personal conflict in the film. Matt Damon's character is very bitter and dark for a long time. Damon and Thereon have some clashes and people keep hectoring Smith about the "failure" of his golfing tips for Damon. (Smith just stays quiet and inscrutable, HE knows its going to pay off.) And I recall a powerful moment when a child confronts his Depression era father about the latter's joblessness.

But Redford pushes past all that and heads for the happy ending and for the idea of faith in ...something(oneself, to start.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

1) In addition to Bruce McGill as Walter Hagen, I thought Joel Gretsch did a great job as Bobby Jones.

--

It made for a nice contrast: the fresh-faced and handsome "All American Boy" and the cigar smoking, hard drinking middle aged professional. And how they BOTH treated Damon was uplifting.

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2) I also enjoyed Peter Gerety's Nescaloosa. I think he's an underrated character actor and he did a great job as well.

---

He's one of those great character actors with a great face and voice. I stumbled onto him on a streaming series called "Sneaky Pete" a couple of years ago and went nuts trying to remember where I saw him before. It took some imdb-ing to find him in Bagger Vance.

---

3) I love the historical golf references in the movie. The scene where Junuh hits the "jigger" into the wind is a tribute to Tiger's famous "Stinger." I think Hagen hitting the 3-iron on the beach on 18 alludes to Seve Ballesteros, who supposedly learned the game hitting an old 3-iron on a Spanish beach. And I think Junuh's putt on 18 was a nod to Jack Nicklaus and his putt on 16 at the 1975 Masters.

--

There YOU go! See, I know nothing of that, consequently for those of you who DO, it must have been great to sense these knowing references in the film.

I play a little golf and I've gone to a few tournaments to watch. I have my own "Bill Murray story" at Pebble Beach, in which I was standing by the green, he tried to shake my hand, but I declined because a woman was sitting on the ground in front of my knees and I felt I would trip over her and fall, turning the whole thing into a photo op. Murray withdrew his hand and gave me a funny look.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

The largest group of movie stars I ever saw at a golf tournament was assembled for the Bob Hope Palm Springs Tournament when, for one year only, it was turned into the George Lopez tournament ("The Hopez") Lopez had the "agent connections" and the diversity cred to bring into the tournament

Samuel L. Jackson
Don Cheadle
Kevin Costner
Clint Eastwood
Joe Pesci
Andy Garcia
Ray Romano(but then he is at EVERY tournament)
Kevin James

...I recall that Tall Samuel L. Jackson was dressed all in PINK, head to toe and cap...it was a funny look but he was too strapping to get dissed. (I got a millisecond to tell him I thought his best role was in Jackie Brown. Hey, carpe diem.)

A lot of these players were all around us when not playing, right next to us and reasonably willing to talk. Pesci was approached by an autograph seeker and Pesci said "Yeah, I'll sign it , but you gotta walk with me..." and the two walked off for quite some time.

I recall Clint Eastwood playing near the crowd and raising a very long, very bony hand and fingers to silently ask for our silence before he shot. I remember that HAND.

And Andy Garcia hit into the rough where we were standing and made small talk, which was hard to reciprocate ("Golf is a humbling game," he said.)

I linger on this "George Hopez Golf Tournament" because I've never seen so MANY stars in one tournament(Pebble Beach was bigger, but many stars of that era are retired or dead.) And it only lasted one year. The powers that be and Lopez split, it became the Bob Hope again, and fewer stars came the next year. (Kurt Russell and Family Plot villain William Devane, as I recall. Devane lives in the Palm Springs area.)

OK, that's all my golf stories. Except one:

All of us pouring out of Pebble Beach at the end of the day to see a particular man and a particular woman toasting us from the balcony of a bungalow with champagne as we passed by. Folks applauding back at them.

Donald Trump and Melania. Another time and place.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

There's definitely a time and a place for 'nice' movies.

---

When this Psycho/Bagger Vance post of mine popped up again, I couldn't remember why I wrote it. Then I remembered: to make sure I made a case for liking NICE movies. Psycho appears next to my name a lot on my profile, but you know that's because we write a lot on other movies here, too. The role of Psycho in my young life was as that "terrifying, horrible forbidden thing" with a power quite different from that of the "nice" movies were people are good to each other and the bad guys lose. Indeed, the real irony of my liking of Psycho as such a central film in my life is that it is just about the LIMIT of my horror love. Modern stuff like Saw and Hostel and The Visitors and zombie gore...not my taste. ESPECIALLY not my taste: "giallo" movies in which gorgeous model-type women are slowly killed in sadistic ways. Nope. (Frenzy took me to my limit on THAT topic, thank you very much.)

So: "nice" movies. Bagger Vance is truly one. Any number of musicals, from Singin in the Rain to Damn Yankees to The Sound of Music to Finian's Rainbow(a favorite) to Hello Dolly(my grandmother's favorite) to Paint Your Wagon(notice how NICE tough guys Lee Marvin and Clint Eastwood are to each other in that movie.)

On the Hitchocck beat, "The Trouble with Harry" is VERY nice what with love stories not only for a sexy young couple but for a pleasant old couple as well. The Trouble with Harry LOOKS nice(all those fall colors and crystalline nightscapes) and plays nice.

And though a number of bad guys(and one good guy) have to die along the way, North by Northwest is certainly "nice" in its very , very happy ending after the most exhilarating climax in movie history to that ate.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

A couple from the last few years that I can recommend: Petite Maman (a pitch perfect fantasy from Céline Sciamma), Catherine Called Birdy (well cast medieval hijinks sensitively directed by Lena Dunham currently on Amazon), and Leave No Trace (a family goes off the grid movie from Winter's Bone director Deborah Granik).

---

Leave it to you, swanstep, to know the titles which I have never heard of. You are the comprehensive one around here and I only wish I could see everything you say.

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I dare say too that part of Top Gun Maverick's mammoth success has been *its* incredible nice-ness.

---

Yes. 2022 is heading for the closing weeks and I don't really have a "personal favorite of the year yet." Last year it came in December -- Licorice Pizza -- but I'm not sure something that unique is on deck this year. And hey, Licorice Pizza WAS nice.

At the moment, Top Gun Maverick has my personal favorite of the year spot almost by default, and for a funny reason: the theater was full house, the crowd got into it, I went with a couple of couples and we had not been out together in months. It was a good EXPERIENCE, but not quite an unforgettable movie. Still, if nothing more meaningful (in a personal way) turns up in 2022, it will get the slot from me. (Also, the scene between Cruise and Val Kilmer WAS meaningful.)

At the moment, my hopes in the rest of 2022 are for a Spielberg film(which is rare for me to care about these days): The Fabelmans. Its the story of...Steven Spielberg himself. His mom, his dad, his sisters(one of whom is that super-composed girl child actor from Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, Julia Butters.) And others. (Including at least one famous old film director, but not necessarily Hitch.)

The names have all been changed but HAS any other American director(or writer-director) given us the story of his or her life as a movie? I think some foreign directors have.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Meanwhile, over at the "anti-nice."

I've determined these days that rather than commit to "multi-year, multi-season" streaming series like Yellowstone(which I sampled and did not much like), the easier way out is to watch the "six-eight episode and out" productions that streaming does a lot too.

But I watched two back-to-back which rather had me shaking my head over their "anti-entertainment value."

One was called The Watcher. The other was called "The White Lotus." The White Lotus now has a second season, but its first was "self contained." So I feel like I could drop out at any time from The White Lotus in the future. I'm about to start the second season. I'm "in" for the second season because it features two actors of interest: Michael Imperioli of The Sopranos and Aubrey Plaza of "everything." Ms. Plaza is VERY deadpan(my speciality) and very sarcastic and quite pretty in her nasty-edge way. So I'll watch.

THAT "White Lotus" takes place at a resort in Italy. The FIRST White Lotus took place in a resort in Hawaii. I guess we're talking a chain. Recall that one of my favorite movies is 1967's "Hotel" so you might think I'd be partial to a new series about intersecting stories in a hotel but...no.

For The White Lotus Season One(which I believe won an Emmy for Best Series...it figures) is basically about shallow, selfish rich white people treating each other and the people who serve them with contempt, bullying, envy, oppression, lies, hypocrisy. Its gorgeous TO watch, but a very hard watch. Nobody's nice to anybody, except just a tiny bit at the end to salvage a little humanity.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

The White Lotus shares with The Watcher one particular actress: Jennifer Coolidge, who, back in the 90's , was a very hilarious player in the Christopher Guest docu-comedies(Best in Show, A Mighty Wind) and has rather congealed into a plastic surgery nightmare plying "too much ditzy schtick." Except: in both The White Lotus(where she's a rich woman with no husband and her hated mother's ashes in two) and The Watcher(where she is an ambitious real estate agent and false friend of Naomi Watts noveau rich homebuyer of the worst house since Amityville)...she's a villain at heart. Both times. I can't say that the Jennifer Coolidge character in either The White Lotus OR The Watcher is very much fun to spend time with. And one time she was.

The Watcher tells a more specific story, based on a true story. Handsome lawyer(Bobby Cannavale), beautiful wife(Naomi Watts), lovely kids, move into a house -- straining their finances to do so -- and find the neighbors to be uniformly hostile(so they are hostile right back) and the house the scariest place to live since Amityville. But for a specific reason: a "watcher" keeps sending them letters saying that he or she IS watching. Threats are suggested and the greed of the husband and wife is indicted.

Its fun to see Margo Martindale and Mia Farrow among the threatening neighbors. MM is in EVERYTHING these days, especially by show runner Ryan Murphy(who seems more Aaron Spelling than Martin Scorsese to me). And Mia Farrow has aged her waifishness into something that can be real evil (here, and also in the Billie Whitelaw Satan's nanny role in The Omen remake.)

But when all is said and done, both The White Lotus Season One and The Watcher left me feeling that I had not watched terribly well plotted stories and I spent time with a bunch of jerks.

Not nice at all.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

The White Lotus now has a second season, but its first was "self contained." So I feel like I could drop out at any time from The White Lotus in the future. I'm about to start the second season.

I loved the first Season of The White Lotus but I haven't rushed to check out Season 2. I guess that something about Season 1's perfection and self-containedness makes me fear rather than look forward to its sequel. Russian Doll on Netflix was simalr for me: Season 1 was perfect, had no need for a sequel, etc. and so I've held off so far from the Second season. Note how different these shows are and feel from the previous champion shows, e.g. Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, The Americans, etc. where the self-contained-ness of the first seasons was just a feint or by convention. In all those cases we were only just getting to know the families in question, and the central actions of the shows - the falls of central characters and the rising of others including next generations - haven't even really begun by the end of Season 1.

Another high concept/high impact show that I feel relatedly about is Euphoria. I kind of got my fill of that show from Season 1 plus its two pandemic specials, and haven't felt moved to continue

And then there are shows like Homeland and The Handmaid's Tale where it took me a season or more at least to figure out that I *should* have stopped watching after Season 1 (in each case Season 1 used up all the original source material and quality dropped away sharply after that).

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

I loved your "Hopez" story as well! Yes, so much "star power" there and a lot of those guys seemed to have the "golf bug." Such wonderful stories/anecdotes. I definitely agree with Andy Garcia on how golf can humble a person! 😃 And I like what you said to Samuel L. Jackson...I really liked "Jackie Brown" a lot (probably surprised him that you didn't say "Pulp Fiction").
Former President Trump has a pretty solid golf swing also...I like that he gives it a rip (That's what I try to do as well...swing hard in case I hit it! 😃).
Great stuff, ecarle...thank you again for posting that. Oh, regarding Joe Pesci, I remember reading that he is fairly short in real life...but what a great actor he is as well. All those guys you mentioned are such talented actors.

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

I loved your Bill Murray story! He's been a fixture at Pebble Beach for so many years...even though he plays the clown so often, he really has a nice swing (I believe he caddied as a kid in the Chicago area when growing up, if I remember correctly). So awesome as well that you got to go to Pebble Beach...I have never been but everyone I've talked to that's been there just raves about it. It's a special spot for sure!

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

Thank you, ecarle. I just marvel at your film knowledge and your analysis of films. When my dad passed away a little over six years ago, one of the ways I dealt with the grief from that was to watch quite a few of the "classic films" that I had never seen ( I really wasn't a huge moviegoer growing up) and I used a lot of your analysis & recommendations in doing so.
One thing I love about this movie is that I think that there are a lot of similarities between golf and life. This movie does a great job of illustrating that, as you mentioned in your post. I would never try to claim that this movie is the greatest movie ever made...but, yes, it is my favorite movie and I was so glad to see that you liked it as well.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

And I like what you said to Samuel L. Jackson...I really liked "Jackie Brown" a lot (probably surprised him that you didn't say "Pulp Fiction").

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Indeed that was the point I tried to impart in my brief two seconds in his presence directly..."I know everybody says Pulp Fiction, which was great, but for me, it was Jackie Brown." I got the requisite slow nod of appreciation in return. Who knows if he really agreed?

I elected to tell these "golf celebrity stories" in part because of what I call an ongoing struggle as I look back over a lifetime of movie going:

Just how important ARE movie stars, really?

The "cash" answer is: very important. Jack Nicholson earned 60 million in 1989 dollars for Batman. I daresay that would cover the lifetime earnings of a number of people on Moviechat, aggregate.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

So we can dismiss these people or think they're overrated but...they have certainly achieved something that many in the world have not. And not on the basis of education(so many dropped out of high school) or athletic prowess...simply "having what it takes" to be an actor(to start, which can include great looks, to start) and then getting the breaks to build a superstar (or even star) career.

At that "Hopez" tourney, one could "take in" Clint Eastwood for his monumental career AND his Oscar cred; Samuel L. Jackson(and remember, all in PINK) for his prominence in QT films AND his Gene Hackman-like presence in every other movie ever made; Joe Pesci(for his incredible streak of roles: Lethal Weapon II, GoodFellas, Home Alone, My Cousin Vinny, Lethal Weapons III and IV...Casino...but above all GoodFellas) and so forth and so on. They are people, they are very RICH people, but for a movie buff, they are part of the fabric of our fantasy lives AWAY from whatever work we do.

By the way, I've seen Ray Romano at every tourney I've ever gone to. He always amuses me. He's made scores of millions from his sitcom and he chooses to use much of his spare time just...golfing. And standing near him, he's "just a guy" joking around with the people around him but -- worth multi-millions.

One thought I have had is that movie stars and music stars don't really golf as much as they did. In the 50's/60s heyday, you'd have Bing Crosby(for whom the Pebble Beach tourney was named), Bob Hope, Dean Martin, James Garner, Jack Lemmon, and many more there out on the links. Pebble Beach doesn't get that many "majors" anymore -- which is why that "Hopez" tourney amazed me. I didn't even know that Sam Jackson and Don Cheadle DID golf. (Kevin Costner took up the game for his golf movie "Tin Cup" and seems honor bound to play in tourneys now.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Bruce McGill -- from Bagger Vance -- I've seen at some tourneys. Watching him play while I was with friends, I was attempting to do that thing he did in Animal House where he tapped a patriotic song out on his throat (not at HIM, for my friends.) An attractive woman walked up beside me and did it...perfectly. We complimented her. She said "that's because I'm his wife." So we hung for a few holes with Bruce McGill playing and his wife watching. Just calm and unobtrusive fan stuff. (And McGill has earned MY movie fan admiration -- he was good in a LOT of movies.)

A slight shift on the Hitchcock stars. I was in close proximity to two of them, several times each, in my life to date: Cary Grant from North by Northwest and Janet Leigh fromPsycho. In each case, they took on a "larger than life quality" because HE was the man who ran from the crop duster and climbed Mount Rushmore and SHE was the woman in the shower. That DOES count for something.

Cary Grant knew this; he took NXNW star Eva Marie Saint out to a concert while they were making the movie and as everyone applaued them he told her: "Smile, Eva -- their seeing us will be something they will remember for the rest of their lives." He was right. I do.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

One thing I love about this movie is that I think that there are a lot of similarities between golf and life.

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There are indeed. Great days when everything you hit is gold and you're on top of the world. Bad days when you can't hit anything. Joy and agony. And: "You play against yourself."

--

This movie does a great job of illustrating that, as you mentioned in your post. I would never try to claim that this movie is the greatest movie ever made...but, yes, it is my favorite movie and I was so glad to see that you liked it as well.

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Well, I like it very much. On a list I keep, it is my second favorite movie of 2000, and I enjoy watching it from time to time. Its also one of those rare movies(today, given the cost of stars) where you get to see two stars interacting -- Will Smith and Matt Damon. Plus Charlize Thereon looking great as usual and proving a star herself. Plus Jack Lemmon -- a star I soured on eventually(too many neurotic loser types) --going out(literally) in style. He WAS good when he had the right role.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I loved the first Season of The White Lotus but I haven't rushed to check out Season 2. I guess that something about Season 1's perfection and self-containedness makes me fear rather than look forward to its sequel.

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Oh, dear, swanstep. We yet again disagree on a production. But this time, in reverse to our usual -- you liked The White Lotus (Season One), I did not. I wasn't adamantly against the show, but I did tire of being in the company of rich, spoiled selfish people. Its like those "Housewives of Beverly Hills" series. I know people(women) who do love to watch them, and I can get the "humor" of it(those reality shows are fake) but...what's the point?

The casting was spot on. That guy they got to play the rich Frat-ish Mamas boy had one of those faces you just want to punch(a sad truth) but he had the requisite movie star muscular torso so you could see why his newlywed wife would have gone for him: rich, fit...the face betraying a spoiled nature that she didn't find out about until it was too late.

Connie Britton and Steve Zahn, both good actors of a certain age(and a comedy face in his case) were well cast as a well-off couple with the requisite beyotch daughter and aimless, ignored son always on his video game/porn phone. But I didn't like any of them and in real life -- they would ignore me. In film life...they were clichés.

OK: the show lost believability for me when Molly Shannon showed up -- over the top -- as the very rich mama of the very rich mama's boy to share in the honeymoon. I SUPPOSE this could happen, but it played false to me.

In its favor: the gorgeous Hawaiian location; the weird "tropical percussive jazz rock score" which got a little too on-the-nose about the "human jungle" and the tribal nature of the rich folk. (Bulletin: Season Two will be scored by Este Haim, the one Haim sister with a college education -- UCLA -- and a background in percussion. We shall see.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

And I did like the actor(unknown to me) who played the handsome, over-cheery hotel manager. With his moustache and pleasant manner, he reminded me of other actors (John Cleese? Dabney Coleman?) and what was that accent? I will say that the show was skillful in demonstrating from the outset how this outwardly cheery man would seethe in suppressed rage as the rich people bullied him and bossed him around. An alcoholic and drug addict, too. He's the one I watched with interest to the end.

And, as I say, I'm going to go for the punishment again, because I like some of the cast of The White Lotus Season Two.

Which leads to a point in accord to what you discuss above, swanstep:

The nature of these "one season shows" that are self-contained but CAN lead to later seasons. They are either/or propositions.

MY pleasure recently has been to get these shows which tell their entire story in somewhere from six to 11 episodes. And done. One doesn't have to commit to YEARS of watching to get to the best part(the end.) And if the show is kind of good, great. And if the show isn't, well it was only a few hours of one's time.

I've done The White Lotus, The Old Man, Pieces of Her, The Watcher, Mare of Easttown, Sharp Objects -- all one-season shows(to date) that wrapped up(for now.) I can't say I've really enjoyed any of those mentioned, except perhaps The Old Man for Jeff Bridges valiant cancer-stricken performance and John Lithgow in support. As for Sharp Objects, it was rather HBO at its sickest(the network seems to dig on perverse shows) with a post credits sequence showing child murders that I felt was among the worst fictional things I've ever accidentally been subjected to. (And Dahmer's a big hit now, too; as I've said before, our world of mass shootings and other atrocities certainly links to our entertainment. Says the guy who loved Psycho. Never mind.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Russian Doll on Netflix was simalr for me: Season 1 was perfect, had no need for a sequel, etc. and so I've held off so far from the Second season.

---

I'm catching up with some of these series as I browse the streaming networks.

A funny thing: with a lot of these shows, I am watching them one, two, three years after they actually aired and I find myself thinking back to when I first IGNORED them. "Oh..Sharp Objects...this is from 2017...what was I doing back THEN?"

And I will get confused when I see actors doing NEW shows while I'm still watching their OLD shows.

Billy Bob Thornton(a favorite of mine back in the 2000s) has a streaming series called Goliath. One never knows when another season is going to turn up; he's done three. He's good, he gets good guest stars(the late William Hurt, Dennis Quaid, JK Simmons) but it seems like a network lawyer show gussied up with light-R stuff.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

---
Note how different these shows are and feel from the previous champion shows, e.g. Sopranos, Mad Men, Breaking Bad, The Americans, etc. where the self-contained-ness of the first seasons was just a feint or by convention.

---

Exactly. David Chase famously said that he "put everything he had" into Sopranos Season One because he didn't know if there would be a Season Two. So that was a "self contained movie." But there was a Season Two and eventually (I felt) too many seasons overall. The show should have ended the end of Season Five, which had a perfect ending for the series. But it went two "half seasons" more. With an ending I hate and others love and...that's bad, too.

--

In all those cases we were only just getting to know the families in question, and the central actions of the shows - the falls of central characters and the rising of others including next generations - haven't even really begun by the end of Season 1.

--

I suppose its like using a seasons as "an 11 episode pilot." If the showrunner knows that more seasons are coming , "arcs" can be created.

Still...and this is just me talking ....I don't think I'm up to committing to multi-season series again for a long time unless something really aimed at me comes along. This one-season 7 hour series have been great. (With not a ONE of them giving me the pleasure of my list of "personal favorite MOVIES of the year." That's where my annual joy lies, plus all the movies I've collected on that list over the years.)

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Another high concept/high impact show that I feel relatedly about is Euphoria. I kind of got my fill of that show from Season 1 plus its two pandemic specials, and haven't felt moved to continue

---

I'm aware of that show, I've sampled it...not sure it is for me.

Is not one of the female leads also the beyotch daughter in The White Lotus? She would seem to have a not particularly pretty face but a spectacular torso -- which she shows off, which actresses have been doing from time immemorial.

---

And then there are shows like Homeland and The Handmaid's Tale where it took me a season or more at least to figure out that I *should* have stopped watching after Season 1

---

Ha.

---

(in each case Season 1 used up all the original source material and quality dropped away sharply after that).

---

TV series -- driven by corporate greed -- have often played out well beyond the story mattering anymore. Think of Gray's Anatomy on now -- what, 14 years or so? The cable equivalent would be The Walking Dead , which seems to FINALLY be wrapping up its run (did it not begin around the same time as Mad Men and Breaking Bad on the same cable network?)

Oh, well , to each their own -- to anyone who likes watching these same shows(with changing casts and storylines) for 14 years -- have at it.

But I will always like a movie better.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

And what of Yellowstone?

Fascinates me:

Kevin Costner became a movie star in 1987 -- The Untouchables(action) and No Way Out(sex) did it for him.

Then he had an INCREDIBLE run of movies -- hits and blockbusters alike(no sequels by his demand): Bull Durham, Field of Dreams, Dances With Wolves(Best Picture/Director for Costner), Robin Hood(miscast but his biggest hit), JFK(prestige, Oscar nom), The Bodyguard(hit songs for Whitney.) And one bomb in there called Revenge, no worries.

But all it took was three overlong, overbudgeted, underperforming ego trips -- Wyatt Earp(beaten by Tombstone), Waterworld, and The Postman and...Costner was over. Just like that. He remained a "name" but rather struggled on for a couple of decades until...

...he became a "TV star." (But streaming...that's different, people PAY to see him.) Yellowstone. He's a big deal again, so big that they keep making spin-off shows and the next one stars HARRISON FORD. Jeez Harry -- going for the bucks, eh?

I sampled some Yellowstone and it felt like Dallas to me. But I enjoy seeing it hit big. Kevin's back and Harrison's got him!

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

And one other stellar hit from Costner 1.0 - Tin Cup (bringing this thread back to Golf). I love that movie! Costner is great in that, Rene Russo couldn't be sexier or more believable, Don Johnson is excellent. It leans on the golf-as metaphor-for-life-thing a bit much for some people I suspect, but I've never picked up a golf club and it worked for me. Tin Cup may not be the greatest movie ever made but it's very strong for the sort of character-driven-feel-good film it is, and I'd rate it much higher than that dreadful CODA best picture winner this year.

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

swanstep wrote: "And one other stellar hit from Costner 1.0 - Tin Cup (bringing this thread back to Golf). I love that movie!"

swanstep, I've also enjoyed your posts here and back-and-forth with ecarle over the years. I was a big fan of Kevin Costner because of "Bull Durham" and I loved"Tin Cup" also...except for the ending. I really wish that Ron Shelton had done the ending differently. I actually liked that Costner's character (Roy McAvoy) didn't win...but I didn't like that he hit 9 million balls into the water before magically holing out with his final ball. I think the movie is great until that ending.

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

@GnG. Your complaint about the climax of the film is often-heard (the Tin Drum messageboard is full of it) perhaps particularly from those who play or at least follow golf. Speaking as a non-golfer and non-follower of golf, however, I thought the climax where Roy reveals/reverts to his true nature as a bit of a flake and as a talented, showboating, loveable, but incorrigible screw-up was great. The self-sabotage had been predicted by Don Johnson's character - it had to end that mad way. It's an anti-Golf-as-it-would-ever-actually-be-played climax but that struck me as the point.

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

@ swanstep...fair enough. Yes, I think being a golfer definitely influences my opinion on the end of the movie. I do love the rest of the movie...I think the driving-range scene where McAvoy has the "shanks" is one of the funniest moments of all time! 😃

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

ecarle wrote: Bruce McGill -- from Bagger Vance -- I've seen at some tourneys. Watching him play while I was with friends, I was attempting to do that thing he did in Animal House where he tapped a patriotic song out on his throat (not at HIM, for my friends.) An attractive woman walked up beside me and did it...perfectly. We complimented her. She said "that's because I'm his wife." So we hung for a few holes with Bruce McGill playing and his wife watching. Just calm and unobtrusive fan stuff. (And McGill has earned MY movie fan admiration -- he was good in a LOT of movies.)"

Yes, he's an excellent actor and I do love his portrayal of Hagen (I believe he was something like a 6-handicap when he filmed "Bagger Vance," so he was a good player also. But I like that he does a pretty good job emulating Hagen's swing and personality in the movie).

I actually didn't know that much about him before "Bagger Vance." I had never seen Animal House" (That was actually one of the movies that I watched after my dad died, based on your comments on it). I had seen "My Cousin Vinny," but had forgotten that he played the sheriff in it. But he's definitely had quite the career for sure.

The Cary Grant and Janet Leigh stories are great also. Two Hollywood legends...lucky you! 😉

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

ecarle wrote: "By the way, I've seen Ray Romano at every tourney I've ever gone to. He always amuses me. He's made scores of millions from his sitcom and he chooses to use much of his spare time just...golfing. And standing near him, he's "just a guy" joking around with the people around him but -- worth multi-millions."

Ray Romano was on a program on the Golf Channel some years back called "The Haney Project," where he worked closely with Hank Haney, who's a well-regarded golf teacher and coach (He coached Tiger for quite a few years). He wanted to get better at golf and I think he did, although he didn't quite improve to the level he wanted. I was never really a huge fan of "Everybody Loves Raymond, " but my wife loved it. But, yes, he does seem to enjoy his golf!

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

ecarle wrote: "One thought I have had is that movie stars and music stars don't really golf as much as they did. In the 50's/60s heyday, you'd have Bing Crosby(for whom the Pebble Beach tourney was named), Bob Hope, Dean Martin, James Garner, Jack Lemmon, and many more there out on the links. Pebble Beach doesn't get that many "majors" anymore -- which is why that "Hopez" tourney amazed me. I didn't even know that Sam Jackson and Don Cheadle DID golf. (Kevin Costner took up the game for his golf movie "Tin Cup" and seems honor bound to play in tourneys now.)"

I think you are correct. I wouldn't be surprised if those guys took up the game as a result of the "Tiger Woods effect," where he pretty much singlehandedly made golf a "hip sport" for a bit. With Tiger's career just about over, it seems like it's going back to being a "niche sport" again.

By the way, I think Samuel L. Jackson is a fairly good player, like a maybe a 4-handicap. I'm not sure what Don Cheadle's handicap is, but I think he was decent also. I remember Will Smith, when he was filming "Bagger Vance," supposedly had the golf bug something fierce (and he had a nice swing, which he got to display in the movie). I'm not sure if he plays anymore or not...I kind of think he doesn't, because I don't think the Oscars situation would have happened if he still was playing. 😉

(Continued )

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

Regarding the "older Hollywood guys"...they really seemed to "live the life, didn't they? The Bob Hope Desert Classic and the "Crosby Clambake" at Pebble Beach were popular tournaments on the PGA Tour for a lot of years (I believe Bing Crosby actually passed away after playing a round of golf in Spain...supposedly, his final words were something like, That was a great game of golf!" right before he had a heart attack.
Of the ones you listed, they were all pretty good players, except for Jack Lemmon. He always wanted to make the cut at Pebble Beach, but I don't think he ever did. But what a great actor he was...and I love his cameo in "Bagger Vance." The final scene of that movie stirs a lot of emotions in me...not just as a golfer, but knowing that is Lemmon's final screen appearance also.

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

ecarle wrote: "I elected to tell these "golf celebrity stories" in part because of what I call an ongoing struggle as I look back over a lifetime of movie going:

Just how important ARE movie stars, really?

The "cash" answer is: very important. Jack Nicholson earned 60 million in 1989 dollars for Batman. I daresay that would cover the lifetime earnings of a number of people on Moviechat, aggregate."

I am so glad you shared them...I enjoyed them very much!

Regarding the answer to your question (a great question, by the way)...I think there's no right or wrong answer necessarily and I think the answers will vary from person to person. I saw an interview with Matthew McConaughey a few years back where he called Hollywood "America's greatest export." I'm not sure I agree with that...but it is interesting to think about. And I think back to the movie "Dead Poets Society," where Robin Williams' character gives the speech about doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc., being "noble and necessary professions," but the "artistic passions" being the "good stuff." Again, while I do see elements of truth in this, I'm not sure I buy into it 100% either.

I grew up playing sports and being a sports fan...my view on Hollywood/movie stars is a lot like my view on pro sports:
1) Money has really changed the games.
2) They aren't what they used to be (IMO, of course).

I'm obviously not a critic or movie expert, so I would defer to someone like you, who has a lot of film knowledge. It seems to me that being a "movie star" today just isn't the same as it used to be.

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

And one other stellar hit from Costner 1.0 - Tin Cup (bringing this thread back to Golf). I love that movie!

--

Me, too, swanstep. There, we got one agreement again. Not that we have to.

Interesting: Tin Cup is from "Costner 1.0 period" in certain ways but he actually did it AFTER two overpriced failures(Wyatt Earp, and Water World, the latter made money but not enough) and it SEEMED like he was returning to modest features but THEN he made The Postman and...that was it. Over.

---

Costner is great in that, Rene Russo couldn't be sexier or more believable, Don Johnson is excellent.

---

Its one of a series of pretty good "sports comedy drama romance films" all written, and some directed, by a "athlete auteur" named Ron Shelton. He played minor league baseball and turned that into Bull Durham, but first somebody else directed his FOOTBALL script for "The Best of Times."

The movies rans thus:

Football: The Best of Times (Kurt Russell, Robin Williams.)
Baseball: Bull Durham(Costner, Sarandon, Tim Robbins)
Basketball: White Men Can't Jump (Snipes, Harrelson.)
Boxing: I can't remember the name. Sam Jackson plays a promoter.
Golf: Tin Cup (Costner, Russo, Johnson.)

All were very witty, sexy, and "knowing" about their sports. The one with Russell and Williams was more broad. Its 1986. But in 1973 in high school , Williams dropped a pass thrown by Russell and lost "the big game" between cross-county rivals Bakersfield(where Marion buys her car) and Taft.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I daresay that Tin Cup has risen above the others because lots of people play golf and that final bit at the water lake is insane and yet...indeed symbolic. And Costner(always a "sex star" in some of his early films, he liked to romance ladies on the screen) was just fine with Rene Russo. Also he had that "rambling shamblin'" attitude here. Also, Don Johnson was suave and hilarious as Costner's golf rival. (What was it he hated? Old people, kids and dogs?)

Eventually Ron Shelton dropped sports to give us a VERY sexy "political comedy sex romance" called "Blaze," where Paul Newman plays aging horndog Governor Earl Long and a newcomer named Lolita Davidovitch played stripper Blaze Starr. "Based on a true story" with this great exchange:

Governor Long: Would you still love me as much if I wasn't the fine governor of the great state of Louisiana?
Blaze Starr: Would you still love ME if I had little (breasts) and worked in a fish house?

I don't know if Blaze was a hit but what Ron Shelton got out of it was Lolita Davidovitch as his wife. Good deal.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

@GnG. Your complaint about the climax of the film is often-heard (the Tin Cup messageboard is full of it) perhaps particularly from those who play or at least follow golf. Speaking as a non-golfer and non-follower of golf, however, I thought the climax where Roy reveals/reverts to his true nature as a bit of a flake and as a talented, showboating, loveable, but incorrigible screw-up was great. The self-sabotage had been predicted by Don Johnson's character - it had to end that mad way. It's an anti-Golf-as-it-would-ever-actually-be-played climax but that struck me as the point.

---

I golf, but not much and not well at all. That said, I golf with people who ARE good sometimes and when I raise Tin Cup with them it leads to real dismissal of it over that ending.

But on the other hand...oh well. (I'd say "so what" but I honor golfandguitars concerns.) Recall that early funny scene where "caddy" (sort of) Cheech Marin keeps handing clubs to Costner who keeps breaking them over his knees while the two talk. "Rebellion."

Kevin Costner was/is a good looking fellow (he got comparisons to Gary Cooper and Steve McQueen in equal measure.) He sort of had a "teenage surfer" adenoidal voice, but he made up with it by playing a LOT of ornery, tempermental characters. Evidently men AND women like that in their heroes.

By the way, though Cheech was "paired" with Costner in Tin Cup, he OFFICIALLY linked up with Don Johnson as pals on "Nash Bridges," an SF TV cop show.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

(And McGill has earned MY movie fan admiration -- he was good in a LOT of movies.)"

Yes, he's an excellent actor and I do love his portrayal of Hagen (I believe he was something like a 6-handicap when he filmed "Bagger Vance," so he was a good player also. But I like that he does a pretty good job emulating Hagen's swing and personality in the movie).

---

Personality is one thing...but getting the swing...NICE WORK. McGill played well enough in tourney play. These were ProAm things with celebrities(including sports celebrities) and pro golfers. I saw him a lot and in recent years, not so much. He's getting older. (He had a role on that cop show Rizzoli and Isles -- in the pilot, he got KILLED, but they brought him back to life for series.)

McGill was pushed for Oscar(supporting) for one big scene as a heroic anti-tobacco lawyer in "The Insider." I liked him as a Judge trying to field chicanery from John Cusack and Gene Hackman(but not pure lawyer Dustin Hoffman) in "Runaway Jury." But...hey a LOT of movies in his prime.

--

The Cary Grant and Janet Leigh stories are great also. Two Hollywood legends...lucky you! 😉

--

Yes. Lucky me. One of the things I try to do here is assure that I really HAVE met or seen these celebs. I can also count those I never GOT to see and really wanted to:

From Psycho: Anthony Perkins and Martin Balsam. I met NEITHER of them, and alas they are all gone.

"From my age": No Paul Newman. (But I DID see Steve McQueen. In a car, parked. Fitting.)
(And I DID see Robert Redford -- in a car behind me in Napa Valley . He smiled and mouthed, "start driving.")

I saw those around when I was around LA in the 70's and 80's. William Holden. James Stewart. John Wayne. Yes, yes, yes.

Tippi Hedren: Several times.

No Lee Marvin. No Burt Reynolds. No Charles Bronson.

Clint Eastwood: plenty. Golf tourneys and elsewhere.

No Tom Hanks. No Tom Cruise. No Julia Roberts. No George Clooney.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

But...the two longest encounters I had with movie stars were:

Burt Lancaster...in my office for about a half hour. We were working with him on a project and he was waiting for his driver. I tried to avoid being Chris Farley on SNL talking to Bruce Willis: "Ya remember...in Die Hard? ...when you climbed that building and uh...jumped?) Luckily Lancaster talked more to ME about my life and work. I did tell him that I liked him in The Professionals very much. A valuable "fun" role after the serious stuff.

Elizabeth Taylor...trying to escort her to a meeting...we were chased into an office by a crowd of fans. I locked the door and we waited for security. We talked a little, she was very nice, she just figured "I was supposed to take care of it."

Meanwhile... Brad Pitt. No. Leo DiCaprio. No. J-Law. No....

And "on topic", here is who I saw from Psycho:

Anthony Perkins: NO.
Janet Leigh: YES. Several events.
Vera Miles: YES. At Hitchcock's memorial service.
Martin Balsam: NO.
John Gavin: YES. Burbank Airport.
Patricia Hitchcock: YES. At Family Plot premiere and memorial service.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Ray Romano was on a program on the Golf Channel some years back called "The Haney Project," where he worked closely with Hank Haney, who's a well-regarded golf teacher and coach (He coached Tiger for quite a few years). He wanted to get better at golf and I think he did, although he didn't quite improve to the level he wanted.

---

Well, I guess you can play all the time(as the rich Romano can) and...you have your limits. Otherwise, you'd be Tiger.

---

I was never really a huge fan of "Everybody Loves Raymond, " but my wife loved it.

---

Hmm..well it WAS a show about the wife running the husband to ground. LOL.

--

But, yes, he does seem to enjoy his golf!

--

I can attest. Funny guy, too. And he still works. He's had cable series(like Get Shorty) and he was fine in The Irishman with all those heavyweights. "Extra money can't hurt."

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

I think you are correct. I wouldn't be surprised if those guys took up the game as a result of the "Tiger Woods effect," where he pretty much singlehandedly made golf a "hip sport" for a bit. With Tiger's career just about over, it seems like it's going back to being a "niche sport" again.

--

Its possible. A fair number of stars took up golf for a movie role(Costner with Tin Cup, but Nicholson for The Two Jakes) and..being good actors...could actually play "OK" after a short time. I suppose if they really WORKED at it...they'd get good.

---

By the way, I think Samuel L. Jackson is a fairly good player, like a maybe a 4-handicap.

--

I remember now an interview with him, he's a BIG golfer...travels the world playing and has incorporated golf into some of his movies. So...I guess I just forgot.

---

I'm not sure what Don Cheadle's handicap is, but I think he was decent also. I remember Will Smith, when he was filming "Bagger Vance," supposedly had the golf bug something fierce (and he had a nice swing, which he got to display in the movie). I'm not sure if he plays anymore or not...I kind of think he doesn't, because I don't think the Oscars situation would have happened if he still was playing. 😉

--

An interesting analysis of Mr. Smith's situation. Golf can make one more "zen."

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Regarding the "older Hollywood guys"...they really seemed to "live the life, didn't they? The Bob Hope Desert Classic and the "Crosby Clambake" at Pebble Beach were popular tournaments on the PGA Tour for a lot of years

---

Yes. And on TV. Its back before the internet when we knew EVERYTHING about them.

I've gone to Pebble Beach a few years and I suppose they have a fairly good number of celebs. It just seems like fewer big names. Bob Hope and Bing Crosby WERE golf.

---

(I believe Bing Crosby actually passed away after playing a round of golf in Spain...supposedly, his final words were something like, That was a great game of golf!" right before he had a heart attack.

--

All true from what I"ve read. His widow gave a press conference and said he died doing what he loved. Its funny: golf isn't "action packed" like tennis or softball but...it can still stress you and make you walk, etc.

But its like the old golf joke:

Man: Golf was terrible today, honey.
Wife: What happened?
Man: Harry died of a heart attack on the 9th hole.
Wife: How terrible.
Man: Absolutely. The whole rest of the game it was "play the hole, drag Harry, play the hole, drag Harry."

Rim shot.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Of the ones you listed, they were all pretty good players, except for Jack Lemmon. He always wanted to make the cut at Pebble Beach, but I don't think he ever did.

---

I think Lemmon turned that into an "annual act of bravery." I don't think he ever did, or maybe one year he did and then never again. Too bad. He looked RIGHT in a golf sweater.

--

But what a great actor he was...and I love his cameo in "Bagger Vance." The final scene of that movie stirs a lot of emotions in me...not just as a golfer, but knowing that is Lemmon's final screen appearance also.

--
Yes. Movie came out in 2000. He died in 2001 -- about a year almost to the day after his pal Walter Matthau died in 2000.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

Regarding the answer to your question (a great question, by the way)...I think there's no right or wrong answer necessarily and I think the answers will vary from person to person.

---

Yep. I mean Tarantino is just out this week saying that the Marvel heroes aren't movie stars -- the characters of Thor and Captain America are. Fair enough. But hey, the ACTORS who play them get BIG bucks to be in those movies, to guarantee the fans see the actors.

Elsewhere, Tarantino call Brad Pitt and Leo DiCaprio "the biggest of stars"(or something like that) and ...sure. But then he said "Brad and Leo are like Redford and Newman." Of THAT , I'm not so sure. Redford and Newman were BOTH really handsome. I'm not sure that Leo is at that level. Brad is.

But they get paid enormous sums. Still, take Leo out of his Scorsese and QT movies, does he function? (The Revenant was...OK.) Brad Pitt seems very big to me, but a lot of his movies flop.

One wag wrote: "Movie stars have never been paid so much yet meant so little." I can see that.

CONT

[–] ecarle (14979) 2 years ago

It goes like this:

Does leo DiCaprio have a resume of classics like Humphrey Bogart or James Stewart or Cary Grant did? He's got two QT movies, a bunch of Scorsese movies (not all among Scorsese's best) and The Big One: Titanic. I guess that's enough.

Tom Hanks had a great run in the 90's and 2000's...but since then, not really so many "big ones."

--- I saw an interview with Matthew McConaughey a few years back where he called Hollywood "America's greatest export." I'm not sure I agree with that...but it is interesting to think about.

---

Well, two edges to that: now American movies play the world(China if we're lucky) and their edges are rubbed down. Oh, well.

---

And I think back to the movie "Dead Poets Society," where Robin Williams' character gives the speech about doctors, lawyers, businessmen, etc., being "noble and necessary professions," but the "artistic passions" being the "good stuff." Again, while I do see elements of truth in this, I'm not sure I buy into it 100% either.

--

Depends. When I was younger, DEFINITELY. Maybe movie stars are for the young. Steve McQueen as Bullitt. Paul Newman as Harper or Hombre for me...Cool Hand Luke for others. And yes, John Wayne -- he was a father figure of sorts, or at least an uncle.

The Towering Inferno isn't reviewed too well today but at the time I went nuts: finally Newman and McQueen together(well McQueen had been Newman's support years earlier.) But it meant something, THOSE two guys. Beat Charlton Heston and George Kennedy(again.)

I dunno. I guess we still have SOME movie stars. But the movies themselves are the stars and, right now, we don't have a whole lot of those.

I grew up playing sports and being a sports fan...my view on Hollywood/movie stars is a lot like my view on pro sports:
1) Money has really changed the games.
2) They aren't what they used to be (IMO, of course).

[–] swanstep (2715) 2 years ago

Its one of a series of pretty good "sports comedy drama romance films" all written, and some directed, by a "athlete auteur" named Ron Shelton.

Mr Shelton is captured in the Criterion Collection closet here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ubj-944IcYI
His best story there is about meeting Billy Wilder in a restaurant a few months after Bull Durham came out (Wilder loved it.).

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

ecarle wrote: "But on the other hand...oh well. (I'd say "so what" but I honor golfandguitars concerns.)"

Don't worry, ecarle...you could have said, "So what?" to me and I wouldn't have minded at all! 😃 It goes back to what you said in one of your first responses in this thread about "Bagger Vance," that a certain movie may be someone's favorite movie, etc. I'm glad that you and swanstep like the "Tin Cup" ending...that's part of what makes the world go 'round! 😉

I'd like to add a few thoughts on the "Tin Cup" actors (and director) that you mentioned (nothing earth-shattering and no response needed...unless you feel like it 😀):

1) Kevin Costner...I loved him in "Bull Durham" (one of the relatively few movies I saw in the theater when it first came out) and agree that he had kind of a "swagger" about him that made him a star. I remember seeing "The Untouchables" on network TV (ABC, I think) and loving it. I never saw "Dances With Wolves" until just a few years ago (It's one of my brother's favorite movies and probably Costner's "best movie," so to speak). But he's had a very interesting acting career, as you and swanstep previously discussed.

2) Rene Russo: I loved her in "Major League" (another funny sports movie that I love) and I enjoyed her performance in the remake of "Yours, Mine, And Ours" with Dennis Quaid (I have a lot of nostalgia over that movie, because that was one of the first movies I saw with my wife, not long after we got married). Again, I have not seen the movie for which she's probably most well-known: "The Thomas Crown Affair."

3) Don Johnson: Yes, he was terrific as David Simms in "Tin Cup." I didn't recognize his appearance in "Django Unchained" until after the movie. But I will always think of him as Sonny Crockett from the old great TV show "Miami Vice" (another show that I have a lot of nostalgia/fond memories of).

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

4) Ron Shelton: I've very much enjoyed his movies that I've seen: "Bull Durham," "Tin Cup," ""Cobb" (with Tommy Lee Jones...FYI, even though I very much enjoyed the movie, there has been a lot to come out about Ty Cobb in recent years that he wasn't really the despicable character as he was portrayed in the movie). But Shelton had a gift for writing and telling such great sports stories (I believe he was a minor-league baseball player himself). I have a lot of respect for his works.

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

ecarle, I very much enjoyed reading your latest posts regarding Quentin Tarantino and would like to respond at some point (I need to re-read and "process it" when I get more time...you covered a lot of ground with those posts! 😉).

I also enjoyed reading your posts regarding Steve McQueen/Paul Newman/"The Towering Inferno." I remember you writing a lot about that on the old IMDB boards. I have never seen "The Towering Inferno," but I do have somewhat vague memories of it being a big deal. I really don't know a whole lot about Steve McQueen, but I finally saw "Bullitt" on TCM around 7-8 years ago and I loved it. A great movie that I saw as somewhat of a "time capsule" as to what life was like somewhat in 1968. As I've said before, your writings/past postings on things like this have been so great for a pretty casual moviegoer like me!

[–] GolfnGuitars (2896) 2 years ago

ecarle, you mentioned both Leonardo DiCaprio and Brad Pitt as today's "movie stars." I would say you're correct. It's interesting with them...regarding LDC, I've seen him in "Titanic," "Revolutionary Road," "Django Unchained," "The Departed," and "The Wolf Of Wall Street." I've seen Brad Pitt in "Thelma & Louise," "Moneyball," "Inglourious Basterds," and "12 Years A Slave." I think they're fine actors and I enjoyed their performances. Here's the thing for me, though...I never saw any of these in the theater when they first came out. But I am just a "casual moviegoer" and I really have not gone to all that many movies in my lifetime. My favorite LDC movie would probably be "The Departed" and my favorite Brad Pitt movie would probably be "Inglourious Basterds." I do think they are movie stars...besides their movies, they have both gotten so much attention for their "personal lives." They do seem to "qualify" for what it takes to be a "movie star."