Janet Leigh Came off as too smug in Psycho
She was almost mocking Anthony Perkins' character Norman Bates
shareShe was almost mocking Anthony Perkins' character Norman Bates
share@Ben. This is an interesting suggestion. I'd prefer to say that Marion is just confident (later revealed as over-confidence) in her dealings with Norman rather than smug or mocking, but I'm open to your reading. Could you perhaps provide an example or two of what you have in mind? of what you take to be Marion being smug/mocking?
shareMaybe i was looking at her reactions the wrong way https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9mJ2oBONug
Now that i look at her , it is just the way she looks actually
She does have a smirk on her face when Norman balks about entering her room. But otherwise, no.
shareActually, I think that Janet/Marion liked Norman, felt superior to him, also had some empathy for his plight. If he'd had better social skills and retained the somewhat more urbane persona of his earlier scenes he might have a chance (or "chance") with Marion. As a real man, I mean. After a couple of minutes she was coming to see him as a case of arrested development. What you describe as smugness strikes me as the assurance of an experienced, bright, attractive young woman who knows that with her looks, and at her age, she has, for a few brief shining moments, the world by the cojones. I wouldn't expect humility or a whole lot of compassion from a woman with what Marion had going for her, which Janet Leigh got across brilliantly. Her scenes are so well directed, and Miss Leigh so at the top of her game, one does see different aspects of Marion for her relatively short time in Psycho, and I do think that it's clear that she does have some compassion.
shareActually, I think that Janet/Marion liked Norman, felt superior to him, also had some empathy for his plight.
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Marion's interaction with Norman is almost "moment by moment" as she sizes him up. He's good looking and polite, which allows for a certain "immediate intimacy"(she lets him enter her room to show it off). Even after hearing Mother screaming about her from the window, she invites Norman BACK into the room to eat dinner(her most flirtatious moment, a female power trip if ever there was one, and indeed, she reacts a bit when Norman turns her down.)
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If he'd had better social skills and retained the somewhat more urbane persona of his earlier scenes he might have a chance (or "chance") with Marion. As a real man, I mean. After a couple of minutes she was coming to see him as a case of arrested development.
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Its an "alas and alack" thing, isn't it? The more he talks -- confesses -- to Marion, the less of a man he seems. "A boy's best friend is his mother" is the moment that kills him; you can see Marion's eyes go a little dead at that.
I might add, us "normal" guys run the same risks. Perhaps I'm speaking from younger years of attempted courtship but there's always that issue with certain women that you are doing alright with "cool small talk" for a distance, but eventually stumble over your words, screw up, reveal too much weakness -- SOMETHING -- and, "swung on and missed!" I think the parlor scene captured some of this. Whatever problems Sam Loomis has, he's a big macho guy.
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What you describe as smugness strikes me as the assurance of an experienced, bright, attractive young woman who knows that with her looks, and at her age, she has, for a few brief shining moments, the world by the cojones. I wouldn't expect humility or a whole lot of compassion from a woman with what Marion had going for her, which Janet Leigh got across brilliantly.
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Women used to get that superiority until about age 35; now it seems it stays with them all their lives.
I mean that in a good, robust equality of the sexes way.
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Her scenes are so well directed, and Miss Leigh so at the top of her game, one does see different aspects of Marion for her relatively short time in Psycho,
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Hence that well-deserved Best Supporting Actress nomination. She should have won. No, she should have been nominated for Best Actress and won.
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and I do think that it's clear that she does have some compassion
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That's the killer irony, isn't it? It is when she tries to "help" Norman by suggesting that he defy his mother("But you should..you SHOULD mind")...and maybe "put her someplace" that Marion's compassion for Norman dooms her with Mother.
Nice to see you , telegonus. Perhaps I can check in over at the Twilight Zone board and say hi...that one seems active and a good companion to this board.
Thanks, EC, and great to see you as well. I gather you've given up on that other post-IMDB site, the one with v.2 in its name. It's some great familiar faces/names and I've had some good experiences there but there's a truncatedness (sic) to conversations, exchanges, call them what you will. No sooner do I build up a head of steam than does a thread move to the second page, then the third, etc. It's got the most veterans of any site since the "closure" but it's also at times too busy for its own good, if you catch my drift. This place is a bit of a ghost town at times but when things pick up they can really go places.
Okay, on to Psycho and Marion: she didn't know WTF was going on except "in the moment" and there's no way she could have guessed Norman's true state of mind, which lends a poignancy to the parlor scene that increases with each successive viewing, as for the veteran Psychowatcher it's the pivotal scene in the movie and also the best acted and best written, though I know of your fondness for the Norman-Arbogast exchange. and it's great, too, though I find myself applauding more the actors than the scene itself. The parlor scene feels built from the ground up.
Yes, Norman's "inferiority" with the Beautiful Woman probably touches a chord in many males, of all ages; and it yanks a few chains with me, too. I think that what makes it so effective as that the combination of superb writing and acting leave it somewhat open ended; and in a way that probably wouldn't be allowed in the more "high functioning" film world of today, as in "let's cut to the chase here";. In Psycho we,--as the actors, writer and director rather indulge themselves, as perceptive viewer can "indulge along" with them while watching it.
The tragedy of Marion's fondness for Norman, for a while anyway, and her compassion for him, as his story unfolds, so to speak, is also what gets her killed is something almost too painful to contemplate. It's like something out of a Greek tragedy, with the difference being that Marion never gets her chance to see the nature of the danger that she's in, as what happens to her in the end might have been avoid had she a.) hadn't taken a shower and/or b.) made sure her door was locked, or c.) not tried to "play therapist" with Norman, if ever so briefly, not talked about mother at all,--but then there's no way she could have known.
Thanks, EC, and great to see you as well. I gather you've given up on that other post-IMDB site, the one with v.2 in its name. It's got the most veterans of any site since the "closure" but it's also at times too busy for its own good, if you catch my drift. This place is a bit of a ghost town at times but when things pick up they can really go places.
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You know, its not that I've given up as much as I just sort of "settled." In recent weeks, my writing time has been limited(that should change soon) so I just sort of gravitated to the "easy access" site for me, which is this one. And certainly there are some familiar voices here.
We seem to have generated "riches out of loss." In the place of ONE chatroom(imdb), we now have two or three. Which splits us two or three ways. I certainly hope I'm not alienating old friends by not turning up at the other boards; I'll try to make visits more regularly.
Again, this board seems to be the easiest for me to enter and navigate. But maybe that's just me.
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Okay, on to Psycho and Marion: she didn't know WTF was going on except "in the moment" and there's no way she could have guessed Norman's true state of mind, which lends a poignancy to the parlor scene that increases with each successive viewing,
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I"ve always loved the simplicity of Hitchcock's "on screen narration" in his famous tour guide Psycho trailer:
"Of course, the victim, or should I say victims...had no idea of the kind of people they were dealing with in this house..."
That's the suspense of the piece, in a nutshell. And WE have no idea during the parlor scene. After Marion is killed, we do...Arbogasts sequence is nothing but suspense accordingly.
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as for the veteran Psychowatcher it's the pivotal scene in the movie and also the best acted and best written, though I know of your fondness for the Norman-Arbogast exchange. and it's great, too, though I find myself applauding more the actors than the scene itself. The parlor scene feels built from the ground up.
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Yes, I certainly have given myself up as liking the Arbogast/Norman dialogue more, but I'm not sure it really is the better scene. For one thing, its remarkably "simple" in content. The detective asks a series of straight-forward questions, toys with Norman a bit to be sure, susses some things out but , still, really just asks for "the facts": Did she meet anyone here? Did she go out? Did she make any phone calls? How did she pay? Indeed, its the "selling" by Perkins and Balsam, the direction (lighting, camera angles) by Hitchcock, that make this special.
The parlor scene, by contrast, is a deeper, more emotional experience, led off by the fact that this is a "man-woman scene," with all of the romantic/nurturing aspects that such a conversation can have.
If we can go by Janet Leigh's interpretation, 1960 audiences may have been expecting this to turn into a romantic scene of a type very familiar in 1960..."the sensitive man being turned MORE manly by a woman." (Think of James Dean in Rebel Without A Cause, and that play about the schoolboy taken into manhood by his teachers' wife -- what was the title of that? Deborah Kerr made the movie; Tony Perkins understudied John Kerr on stage in it. Edit -- Tea and Sympathy!)
The shifting dynamics of the scene -- Norman is handsome, but not worldly; Marion is sexy but compassionate -- are hard to make a clear decision as to what is happening.
Still, as it heads into the discussion of Mother, we start to intuit that all is not well with Norman. In fact a particular line, that if he left his mother "It would be cold and damp, like the grave...the light would go out" should tell us AND Marion that we are in "horror movie territory." Get out!
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Yes, Norman's "inferiority" with the Beautiful Woman probably touches a chord in many males, of all ages; and it yanks a few chains with me, too.
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Glad to hear I'm not alone.
On a positive note, what greater joy is there than when a guy DOES connect with a woman, and interest is reciprocated, and the guy can only think(if not say): "Me? You're interested in ME? I passed muster? I get to pass go?"
Its a great feeling. Poor Norman Bates dashed the chance. Well, mother dashed it for him.
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I think that what makes it so effective as that the combination of superb writing and acting leave it somewhat open ended; and in a way that probably wouldn't be allowed in the more "high functioning" film world of today, as in "let's cut to the chase here";.
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Hitchcock in general, but certainly here(and, I'll suggest , in Vertigo) went "against the grain of traditional storytelling" and messed with audience expectations in two ways: (1) Exactly who was a "hero" or "heroine" was left most murky and (2) exactly where the story was going was thrown on its ear -- not to mention Hitchcock's willingness, in Vertigo, Psycho and(I'll throw in) The Birds...to let the first half hour of storyline just meander on and on and on before the "story" really kicked in. Hitchcock took his sweet time and used that time for explorations of the human psyche other movies had no time FOR.
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In Psycho we,--as the actors, writer and director rather indulge themselves, as perceptive viewer can "indulge along" with them while watching it.
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Agreed, and as above. In the parlor scene, we just sort of go with the flow, even as Marion and Norman must, too. Though we can sense the film starting to "shift," as Marion says less and less, and Norman says more and more.
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The tragedy of Marion's fondness for Norman, for a while anyway, and her compassion for him, as his story unfolds, so to speak, is also what gets her killed is something almost too painful to contemplate.
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There's a deep pain within Psycho that makes the story so powerful. The new "Bates Motel" series has given us a Norman who can "override Mother" and save Marion, but Hitchcock wasn't interested in such an "easy out." Marion's compassion gets her killed by Norman. Norman CANNOT spare her. It must have been something in Hitchcock's own psyche that drove this. Vertigo is cruel in a similar way(the final death of Judy) and Frenzy in yet another way(the killing of "heroine" Babs Mulligan , late in the story, when we thought she wasn't in danger at all.)
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It's like something out of a Greek tragedy, with the difference being that Marion never gets her chance to see the nature of the danger that she's in, as what happens to her in the end might have been avoid had she a.) hadn't taken a shower and/or b.) made sure her door was locked, or c.) not tried to "play therapist" with Norman, if ever so briefly, not talked about mother at all,--but then there's no way she could have known.
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Its funny. Perhaps Psycho in its own way saved a lot of lives, made people less susceptible to violation in the many motels that dot our highways. I've certainly locked motel door deadbolts, and, in a couple of motels in really BAD parts of town, put chairs up against the doorknob(honestly, a few times in cross-country travel I've learned too late I was staying in the worst part of a city.)
That said, there was a real-life motel murder tragedy about ten years ago in Northern California that reminded us of the lessons of Psycho.
A woman and two teenage females(one her daughter, the other a friend) "disappeared' on a road trip. They were eventually traced to a motel and it was discovered that the motel handyman had talked his way into their room to repair a leaky faucet. And he killed all three women. This was a true case.
The painful part: the killer turned out to be the brother of a young man who had been victimized(kidnapped for years, but not killed) by ANOTHER psychopath.
Creating a terrible reputation for this backcountry part of California.
Moral: don't let the motel handyman in, either.
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