MovieChat Forums > Yellowstone Kelly (1959) Discussion > The Fictional Date

The Fictional Date

posted 6 months ago by MAGolding (1240)
10 replies | jump to latest

The story of Yellowstone Kelly takes place over the summer of one year, winter of that year and the next, and then the spring of the next year. So it should have a fictional date of 1876 to 1877, or 1877 to 1878, or 1878 to 1879, etc.

The movie opens with Kelly going aboard the steamboat Far West. There the captain tells Kelly it is not April but June. Aboard, Kelly has a discussion with Major Townes who is going to command at Fort Buford and is ordered to drive the Sioux out of Montana and into Dakota. There is mention of the fictional Treaty of 1874, which puts the date at June 1874 or later.

Kelly also mentions what happened to Custer "at the Horn" which means the Battle of the Little Bighorn, which happened on June 25 & 26, 1876 in real life. June 25, 1876 is also mentioned in several fictional movies set more in the Wild West than in real history. Of course it is always possible that Custer's Last Stand happened at a different time in the fictional world of Yellowstone Kelly.

If Yellowstone Kelly begins in late June, 1876, in real history the Far West was rented by the US Army and would have been travelling northeast on the Yellowstone River to Fort Buford and then on to Fort Abraham Lincoln with wounded soldiers. In that case Major Townes would have been sent by General Terry from their camp on the Yellowstone. And would General Terry have sent a mere major to take command of a fort with a small garrison and orders to defeat the Sioux right after seeing what happened to Custer?

If Yellowstone Kelly happens in a fictional universe, the Far West might not have been hired by the army in 1876. And the movie might open in 1877 or later, when the Far West should have been back to its regular route on the Missouri. In those two possible cases, the Far West would probably taking Major Townes up the Missouri river from civilization to Fort Buford.

So unless Custer's Last Stand has a different date in the movie than in real life, Yellowstone Kelly should happen during two calendar years and begin in 1876 or later.

Townes mentions that Kelly was a scout for General Crook against the Apaches in Arizona - which the real Kelly wasn't - and at some point I think Kelly says he has been trapping in Montana for 7 years.

In real history General crook was in command in Arizona from 1871 to 1875, and 1882 to 1886, though in various movies he is in command there in other years. So if Kelly was a trapper for seven years after being a scout in Arizona for Crook Yellowstone Kelly should happen in roughly 1878 to 1882, or 1887 to 1893. Or if Yellowstone Kelly begins in 1876, 1877, 1878, or 1879, Kelly would have been a scout in Arizona in 1869, 1870, 1871, or 1872.

August 20-31, 2024

[–] MAGolding (1240) 6 months ago

Having seen Yellowstone Kelly again 08-31-2024 I think that it happened during only one calendar year.

There is dialog indicating that Gall's Sioux are going to go into their winter camp soon. Gall makes an agreement with Kelly for Kelly to keep Wahleeh during the big cold. I assumed that meant over the winter but possibly it meant during a cold spell in part of Summer or Autumn.

There is a scene where a storm is coming, and in the next scene characters mention a recent storm. But I have not seen snow on the ground anytime in the movie. So I guess it happens during one calendar year, beginning in June and ending maybe in August or September.

There is a scene where Kelly tells Anse Harper that he was a scout for 2 years with General Crook, in Arizona and New Mexico. Thus his scouting for Crook must have begun at least 9 years before the film. If Kelly began scouting for Crook in 1871 to 1873. Yellowstone Kelly would happen in 1880 to 1882, or later. Or if Yellowstone Kelly happens in 1876 to 1880, Kelly would have begun scouting for Crook in Arizona in 1867 to 1871, or earlier.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 6 months ago

Here are my latest thoughts about the date of Yellowstone Kelly (1959).

The movie begins in June of an unspecified year.

https://subslikescript.com/movie/Yellowstone_Kelly-53457

Kelly apparently expects to spend the winter, which shouldn't start for months, up the the Montana high country, because when Anse Harper asks to be his assistant he says:

Got any idea what it's like to
spend a winter in Montana high country..

And after spending some time with Harper at his cabin:

Got a feeling this is
going to be a long winter.

When Sayapi wants to take Wahleeah from Kelly's cabin Gall says:

It is many miles to our winter camp.
The Arapaho will remain until she is well.

This sort of indicates the Sioux were already in their winter camp or would be soon.

Gall tells Kelly:

The big snow come early.
When it is gone, I'll come for her.

And I always assumed that Gall was speaking about the winter. But maybe Gall expected an unseasonably early storm, like the ice storm which struck the Cole-walker command on sept. 1, 1865 and killed hundreds of their horses.

Wahleeah expects winter to come early:

Winter will come early
but that will not keep Sayapi away.

Later she implies she expects Gall to come for her in the spring.

Many things can happen before spring.

And the sergeant tells the Major:

They're heading for their winter camp.

That is the evidence for Yellowstone Kelly beginning in one year and ending after winter in the spring of the next year.

Continued.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 6 months ago

My previous comment gave the evidence for Yellowstone Kelly beginning in one year and ending after winter in the spring of the next year.

But all the events in the film could happen during just a few weeks or months, and thus be over before the beginning of winter. And if the climax happened in the spring of the next year there would have been many months when no plot was happening. And there is never any snow on the ground in any scene.

Kelly may have been planning to stay in his cabin all winter because that was his usual habit, and he might not expect winter to start for months after he made those comments to Anse.

Gall could have been expecting an early snow storm and agreed with to Kelly to come back for Wahleeah in a few weeks after the snow all melted and Wahleeah would probably be healed. Since Wahleeah didn't hear that, Kelly could have lied to her and told her that Gall would wait until spring, so she wouldn't have been in as much of a hurry to escape.

The remarks about the Sioux going into their winter camp may be due to them expecting an early winter and going into winter camp when it was still August or September.

So I now think that Yellowstone Kelly must happen during a few weeks or maybe months after June of an unspecified year.

What was the fictional year?

Thee is one unambiguous statement.

On the Far west Major Towns mentions a fictional treaty with the Sioux.

The treaty of 74 clearly states...

So the date must be 1874 or later. And since Towns mentions the year of the treaty, they should be talking in a later year.

Earlier there is a conversation between the captain of the steamboat and Kelly:

- A little late this year Kelly.
- It's April, ain't it?

April hell, it's June.

Continued.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 6 months ago

The fictional year of Yellowstone Kelly continued.

At the Beginning of the film the captain of the Far West has a conversation with Kelly:

- A little late this year Kelly.
- It's April, ain't it?

April hell, it's June.

Talking to Towns, Kelly says:

Meaning promotion would come
easy for a man that ran the Sioux out...

might even make you a general, especially
after what happened to Custer on the Horn.

And later, when about to cross the Yellowstone, Towns says:

You let the Indians go unpunished
for what happened at the Horn.

Kelly replies:

Custer was a man full grown.

Obviously this is meant to refer to George A. Custer and the Little Bighorn.

And there is absolutely no statement in the movie about the fictional date of Custer's Last Stand. In real life it happened on June 25, 1876, and the news didn't get to civilization until July 3 to 6, 1876. So if the film begins in June of 1876, Kelly certainly learned of it rapidly. I also note that a few westerns give the partial or complete date of June 25, 1876 for the Little Bighorn.

There are at least three statements that Kelly has been trapping in Sioux country for seven years. And something that Kelly did before that is also mentioned.

Trying to recruit Kelly as a scout Towns says:

your exploits as scout for general Crook
in Arizona territory against the Apache...

Later Anse asks Kelly if he was ever in the army:

- Were you ever in the army Mr. Kelly?
- Two years.

- Where?
- Oh, dry country mostly.

- Arizona?
- New Mexico, all down through there.

Was scout for general Crook.

So Kelly must have started being a scout for General Crook at least 9 years before the beginning of the film.

Continued.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 6 months ago

The fictional year of Yellowstone Kelly (1959) continued.

So the movie states that Kelly was a trapper in Sioux country for seven years before it starts, and sometime before becoming a trapper Kelly was a scout in Arizona for General Crook against the Apaches for two years. So Kelly started scouting for General Crook at least 9 years before the movie started.

In real history General Crook commanded in Arizona from 1871-1875 and from 1882 to 1886, which would put the fictional date of Yellowstone Kelly in 1880-1882 or later, or in 1891-1893, or later. But in reel history General Crook commanded in Arizona in different movies at various dates over more than 20 years in the 1860s, 1870s, and 1880s, interrupted by other generals commanding during that era.

In Apache Ambush (1955) on April 14, 1865 President Lincoln is told that Kingston served in the "Army of the Southwest" for 3 years under General Crook (or possibly Cook or Hook) fighting Apaches. So that could make the fictional date of YK as early as 1871-1874.

In Hondo (1953) in 1869 or 1870 Hondo carries dispatches for General Crook, who is expected to arrive with reinforcements in Arizona soon, putting YK as early as 1879.

In Taza Son of Cochise(1954) Brigadier General Crook is in command sometime between 1875 & 1877, thus putting YK about 1884.

In Apache Rifles (1964) Captain Stanton is under orders from General Crook in 1879. Later a Brigadier General Nelson arrives. This may put YK about 1888.

In Geronimo (1962) Brigadier General George A. Crook is in command, possibly in 1883, though Grover Cleveland is president. This may put YK in about 1892.

In Indian Uprising (1952) Major General Crook is in command in 1885, possibly putting YK in about 1894.

I have a project for a fictional history of the Indian Wars in movies and tv, so the fictional dates of various cavalry and Indians films are of interest to me.

Many people would say that the Little Bighorn must have been the greatest battle of the Indian Wars. But if you point out it was a Sioux victory and that the Sioux are not an independent country now, they might decide that the greatest battle in the Indian Wars must have been the one where the Sioux were defeated after the Little Bighorn.

In real life there were many skirmishes with the Sioux after the Little Bighorn, and several regular sized Indian battles, and a couple of very large Indian battles, Slim Buttes on Oct. 9-10, 1876 and the Dull Knife Fight on November 25, 1876. But there was no great Sioux Armageddon in a single battle.

There would have been an Armageddon enough battle to satisfy all action loving movie fans if the Great Sioux Camp on the Rosebud had not slipped away before the reinforced armies of Generals Terry and Crook arrived in early August, so that seems like a good way to end the Great Sioux War in film history.

Continued.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 5 months ago

Actually I have ideas for two stories about an Armageddon like defeat for the Sioux after Custer's Last Stand. One where the history of the Sioux Wars was close to real history, though exaggerated a bit.

And one where the Indian Wars history is more like that in all the cavalry vs Indians movies, or at least all the ones I might get permission to use, and the ones that I can make consistent with other movies.

There are a lot of inconsistencies between movies and real history and between different movies. Some famous characters of the west died many times in the movies, sometimes with different fictional dates indicated. So either magic is used to bring them back to life repeatedly, or there are several different persons with the same or similar names or both. They include Indian leaders, and cavalry officers and scouts.

The plot of The Plainsman (1936) takes several months of fictional time as nearly as I can tell, and yet the events cover 11 years time in history from the assassination of Lincoln April 14,1865 until the murder of Wild Bill Hickock, August 2, 1876.

And the solution to this problem is that a movie title of The Plainsman (1936) says “Among the men who thrust forward America’s frontier were Wild Bill Hickok and Buffalo Bill Cody. The story that follows compresses many years, many lives, and widely separated events into one narrative - in an attempt to do justice to the courage of the plainsman of our west.”

So perhaps the events of the film "actually" happened to a fictional "Wild Will" Wilcox instead of Wild Bill Hickok, except that the murderer has the same name as Hickock's, and the killing happens in the same place as Hickok's, and a few other things. So possibly it is a Colonel Harrington and not Carrington who reports many of his men massacred, and it is not Custer but some other leader whose command is massacred in 1865.

Continued:

[–] MAGolding (1240) 5 months ago

The novel Little Big Man by Thomas Berger begins in 1852 and continues to 1876, with Jack Crabb/Little Big Man experiencing a number of historic events during the period. The movie Little Big Man (1970) makes Jack’s experiences less historical.

I don't know if Little Big Man (1970) gives any dates for its events. Maybe the movie dates the Washita to 1868. Other movies date Custer's Last Stand to 25 June 1876 and Wild Bill Hickok's murder to August 2, 1876, but the movie has Hickock killed before Custer's Last Stand. Maybe Jack Crabb's memory was bad after 94 years.

They Died With Their Boots On (1941) opens in 1857 when Custer enters West Point and ends with Custer's Last Stand which is dated to June 25, 1876 by other movies.

Chief Crazy Horse (1955) has vague chronology but covers Crazy Horse’s childhood vision, connecting it with a deathbed prophecy by Conquering Bear after the Grattan Massacre 19 August 1854, and in his adult life the Fetterman Massacre on 21 December 1866, the Treaty of Fort Laramie in November 1868, the Battle of the Rosebud 17 June 1876, the death of Crazy Horse’s daughter in 1873, the Little Bighorn 25 June 1876 (all seemingly in one year) and next year the surrender of Crazy Horse 05 May 1877 and the death of Crazy Horse 05 September 1877.

Several movies have Sioux under Red Cloud fighting forts in the 1860s. In the least inaccurate one, Tomahawk (1951) the opening narration gives the year as 1866, and the Fetterman Massacre happens shortly afterwards in fictional time. The closing narration accurately puts the Treaty of Laramie ending Red Cloud's War in 1868.

Gold is reported discovered in the Black Hills at different dates in various movies. To reconcile them one can say there were several groups of hills in Sioux territory, and every time Americas discovered a group of hills there they assumed it was the sacred Black Hills the Sioux whispered about, and the Sioux didn't correct them.

Continued.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 5 months ago

Chief Crazy Horse (1955) opens in Crazy Horse's childhood and then goes to his adulthood when he befriends a Major Twist. General Crook is in command at Fort Laramie. He wears 3 stars on his shoulder straps, apparently making him at Lt. General and possibly different from other General Crooks in the movies. Gold is discovered in the Black Hills, and the army builds forts to protect gold rushers. Crazy Horse has a major role in the Fetterman Massacre. And it seems like the treaty of Fort Laramie happens soon afterwards. But it has to happen in 1868 to be consistent with Tomahawk (1951).

Though Red Cloud signs the Treaty, Crazy Horse refuses and storms out, vowing to continue fighting. General Crook agrees Crazy Horse has to be defeated. Crazy Horse defeats General Crook at a battle on the Rosebud. It is much smaller than the real Battle, and there seem to be far few soldiers than a lt. general should have. Possibly Crazy Horse defeats the vanguard of Crook's force, causing the rest to withdraw.

Crazy Horse returns to his village carrying a flag he captured, and learns that his daughter has died. While morning, he hears that General Custer is coming and then fights the Little Bighorn. This seems to happen in 1868 and Crazy Horse surrenders and dies the next year which should be 1869. But those events happened in 1876 and 1877.

So I suspect there is a time skip. Possibly between Crazy Horse leaving the Treaty of Fort Laramie in 1868 and the Battles of the Rosebud and Little Bighorn in 1876. Or possibly there is a time skip of 8 years between the First Battle of the Rosebud & the defeat of someone not Custer in 1868 and the events in 1876, which I prefer.

Continued.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 5 months ago

In The Glory Guys (1965) the sign over the gate at Fort Doniphan says it was established in 1867. So the unsuccessful Sioux campaign should happen in 1867 or later. Possibly that campaign happens in 1867 in an attempt to avenge the Fetterman Massacre. Possibly it happens in 1868 or later in the campaign against Crazy Horse after he leaves the Treaty of Fort Laramie. And possibly it happens in the 1880s, 20 years after the Civil War, when The Savage (1952) has a fictional Sioux War.

In The Glory Guys it is said that General Osborne will command the campaign. Later a general - who has 3 stars on his rank flag and thus should be a lt. general - gives orders to General McCabe and General Hoffman. He is listed as "commanding general" in the credits and so could be a different person. He is portrayed by Paul Birch, who twice portrayed U.S. Grant.

Or possibly Crazy Horse is killed in 1869 and brought back to life to fight again. Or maybe one Crazy Horse was killed in 1869 and another Crazy Horse became a major Sioux leader in 1876.

In real history Custer became the Lt. Colonel of the the new 7th cavalry in 1866 and led it on the southern plains for several years, and then was on Reconstruction duty in the South, and then was transferred to Dakota in 1873. And some movies might depict Custer and the 7th Cavalry on the southern plains in the 1860s.

But in They Died With Their Boots On(1941) Custer is a civilian after the Civil War until he is assigned to the 7th Cavalry in Dakota. And this can be reconciled with Custer leading the 7th Cavalry on the southern plains earlier by him having a severe accident. And eventually he recovers his physical and mental facilities except for amnesia about serving on the southern Plains, and thinks that going to the 7th Cavalry in Dakota is his first assignment after the Civil War.

Continued.

[–] MAGolding (1240) 5 months ago

In They Died With Their Boots On(1941) Custer and the 7th Cavalry fight the Sioux under Crazy Horse. There is is a scene of them riding in warm weather, and a scene of them riding in a snow storm, and then a scene of them riding in warm weather again.

And when they make a peace treaty with Crazy horse Custer is the spokesman for the US, which sort of implies that Custer and the 7th cavalry were the only forces fighting the Sioux.

Crazy Horse say that the Sioux will give up everything except for the Black Hills and that they will defend the Black Hills to the death.

HEAR ME NOW, LONG HAIR.

IF THIS WORD BROKEN NOW,

NOT ONLY SIOUX BUT
THE CHEYENNE, THE OGLALA,

THE MENICONJOU,
THE BLACKFEET,

THE SANS ARCS,

AND EVERY LIVING TRIBE

BETWEEN MOUNTAINS
AND GREAT WATERS

WILL GATHER
IN ONE LAST BATTLE.

In the 18th century there were 7 tribes of Sioux in the woodlands. One tribe, the Teton or Lakota, moved into the plains and multiplied and gradually split into 7 tribes. Those tribes are usually called the Brule, Oglala, Sans Arc, Hunkpapa, Minniconju, Blackfeet or Blackfoot, and Two Kettles.

The Cheyenne were allies of the Sioux. There was also a totally different nation called the Blackfeet or Blackfoot, so it is uncertain which is meant. The real Crazy Horse was a Oglala, but perhaps this movie Crazy Horse was a Sans arc, Hunkpapa, or Two Kettles, and restricted the name of Sioux to his own tribe. Or maybe in this movie there was a remnant of the Teton, including this Crazy Horse, who called themselves the only true Sioux. And perhaps it was only Crazy Horse's tribe which gave up everything except the Black Hills, since in other movies and real life other Sioux groups had a lot of land outside the Black Hills up to and after the Great Sioux War.

And the only clue I have to the date of this fictional treaty is that it might possibly be the same as the fictional treaty of 1874 mentioned in Yellowstone Kelly (1959)

Continued.