MovieChat Forums > North by Northwest (1959) Discussion > The simple question that he never asked

The simple question that he never asked

posted 8 years ago by Florestan51
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OK, we (the audience) understand how the somewhat dim-witted crooks came to mistake Thornhill for Kaplan (I admit that I didn't pick it up till I'd seen the movie a few times), even though they had no notion of having made a mistake and Thornhill had no notion of how they came to make it. He tries unsuccessfully to convince them that he's not Kaplan but he never asks what I would think is the obvious question, viz., "Why do you guys think I'm Kaplan? Could you at least tell me that?" !!!

[–] bananabry 8 years ago

OK, we (the audience) understand how the somewhat dim-witted crooks came to mistake Thornhill for Kaplan (I admit that I didn't pick it up till I'd seen the movie a few times), even though they had no notion of having made a mistake and Thornhill had no notion of how they came to make it. He tries unsuccessfully to convince them that he's not Kaplan but he never asks what I would think is the obvious question, viz., "Why do you guys think I'm Kaplan? Could you at least tell me that?" !!!

He could, but then they'd either have to refuse to answer, or turn into comic book villains and give away their whole plot. Much too early in the movie for that type of thing. We don't even know the McGuffin yet. ☺

[–] Florestan51 8 years ago

I don't think such considerations, even if they had occurred to him, would have stopped him asking. Apart from that, given that the crooks had paged him and (as they believed) he had responded to that page, then they really had nothing to hide as far as that goes.

Were he then to tell them (truthfully) that he'd never heard any page for Mr. Kaplan, I imagine they would have responded with something like "Come on, Mr. Kaplan, you responded to our page and now you're telling us you're not Mr. Kaplan?" He would then have protested that he had gotten up from the table only to send a telegram, which they could check with the boy at the hotel if they wanted to be sure.

OK, it may not have changed anything and the story could go on as planned but at least some part of the mystery would have been cleared up for Thornhill. I'm only putting myself in his position and thinking what I would have said in a similar situation.

While writing this just now it occurred to me that maybe the omission of such an exchange was actually part of Hitchcock's scheme to keep the viewer in the dark (as well as Thornhill). At the moment that Kaplan is paged the viewer's attention is focused on Thornhill rising from the table to send his telegram. The page is just background "noise" that the viewer may not even notice the first time (as I didn't), similar to airline announcements that one hears in movie scenes set in airports, whose purpose is often merely to convey the atmosphere of an airport.

Well, this is just speculation of course, but my curiosity is piqued.

[–] bananabry 8 years ago

While writing this just now it occurred to me that maybe the omission of such an exchange was actually part of Hitchcock's scheme to keep the viewer in the dark (as well as Thornhill). At the moment that Kaplan is paged the viewer's attention is focused on Thornhill rising from the table to send his telegram. The page is just background "noise" that the viewer may not even notice the first time (as I didn't), similar to airline announcements that one hears in movie scenes set in airports, whose purpose is often merely to convey the atmosphere of an airport.

You are probably correct about this. A fun motif in this film is how Hitch keeps the audience guessing right along with Thornhill. Somewhere it has been mentioned that Cary Grant didn't understand what was going on with the story and that he felt the script made no sense. That is the way Hitch wanted it. Thornhill doesn't understand, so it worked for Grant to be mostly in the dark, too.

[–] StevenSmithNYC 8 years ago

"OK, we (the audience) understand how the somewhat dim-witted crooks came to mistake Thornhill for Kaplan (I admit that I didn't pick it up till I'd seen the movie a few times), even though they had no notion of having made a mistake and Thornhill had no notion of how they came to make it. He tries unsuccessfully to convince them that he's not Kaplan but he never asks what I would think is the obvious question, viz., "Why do you guys think I'm Kaplan? Could you at least tell me that?" !!!"

So let's incorporate that into the screenplay, and see how it plays out:

Townson's Home Int.

VD: Games, Mr. Kaplan?
RT: I'm not Mr. Kaplan. What makes you think I'm this Mr. Kaplan?
VD: Come, come, Mr. Kaplan. You answered the page in the hotel. We need to get down to business.
RT: I didn't answer a page. I was trying to send a message to my mother...
VD: If you cooperate, I can at least offer you the opportunity of surviving the evening.
RT: What is that suppose to mean?
...
...

It would have zero effect. The bad guys have decided he was Kaplan and nothing he said was going to change that. He offered his ID, but they didn't even want to see it.

[–] Florestan51 8 years ago

You may well be right but as I said, that's the question I would have asked in that situation, and it seems to me the question almost anyone in a similar situation would ask. I already acknowledged it wouldn't have changed anything.

Also as I said, he could have said (augmenting your dialogue) ...

"I didn't answer a page. I was trying to send a message to my mother... you can check with the hotel if you don't believe me".

That's an entirely different response than offering his ID.

I gave a possible (and now I think probable) explanation for why it's not asked, noting that I didn't actually notice the page for Kaplan till the nth time I'd seen the movie.

[–] StevenSmithNYC 8 years ago

I think offering up the ID and they didn't even want to look at it, that showed to him he was in serious trouble there. He looked to be turning his motives to just getting out of there. Roger could have said a lot more, I agree, but these guys didn't care because they were use to the spy game.

Being familiar with actual advertising agencies myself, I wouldn't put it past them to hire two actors/stunt guys as a prank or way of throwing a surprised party for a co-worker by staging a kidnapping like this. Roger acts from the start as if this must be a joke, because it is like a spy movie. Even arriving at the Townsend estate it looks like this isn't a real kidnapping, like he might be led into a large ballroom at this party house rented by the agency where all the other employees are. I don't think he comes to terms that he is any real serious trouble until they lay hands on him to force him to drink the booze.

[–] movieghoul 8 years ago

THornhill probably wasn't paying attention to the page for Mr. Kaplan, in which case he would have no idea why they mistook him for Kaplan.

[–] ecarle 8 years ago

Really good discussion here, and it leads, I think, to a glimpse of how Hitchcock practiced a certain amount of omission to allow his plots to move forward without too many questions being asked.

The ID exchange is key, I think - both as a matter of practicality and theme:

Thornhill: I don't suppose it would do me any good to show you a wallet full of ID cards.
Leonard: They make you such GOOD ones.

People are supposed to believe that their "personal ID cards"(driver's license, passport) are the "official proof" that they exist as unique individuals on this earth.

And yet..."they make you such good ones." The line suggests that NO ONE can positively prove who they are. Thornhill is literally "losing his identity" at this moment. The bad guys refuse to accept it "per the usual identification."

I'm reminded of an exchange between loner modern day cowboy Kirk Douglas and a cop in "Lonely Are the Brave":

Cop: You don't have any ID on you.
Douglas: I know who I am.

So does Roger Thornhill. But the bad guys are telling him: you are not who you say you are. You aren't who you THINK you are.

---

The published screenplay for North by Northwest shows Thornhill trying more specific persuasion with the bad guys, saying something like:

"I'm not George Kaplan, whoever he is. I'm Roger Thornhill of the Wesley and Rapp Advertising Agency, and unless one of you is interested in ADVERTISING something, this meeting is going to be a bust for all concerned!"

Hitchcock cut the line(the first sentence remains), possibly because he didn't REALLY want to give Thornhill too much of a chance to prove his case. NBNW is based on moving as fast as it can and saving questions for long after the movie is over(like: why'd those cops believe the woman at the mansion? Well, she had more power then they did.)

Nonetheless, the traps keep springing along the way:

Thornhill: I keep telling you, I'm not George Kaplan.
Licht: Of course, yet you answer his phone and you stay in his room. Nonetheless, we are pleased to find you in.

Mrs. Thornhill: You men aren't REALLY trying to kill my son, are you?(Laughter in return).

And of course, the big one: when Roger gets blamed for the UN murder ON THE SPOT(but that rather frames him as a killer, not as George Kaplan.)

North by Northwest is good about moving quickly on its points and always throwing something in("you answer his phone, you stay in his room") to keep tightening the noose.