MovieChat Forums > The Horse Soldiers Discussion > The Buglers

The Buglers

posted 9 years ago by magolding-94772
3 replies | jump to latest

The organizational tables of each Union regiment usually had two musicians to each company plus one or two principal musicians per regiment. Musicians made the musical calls that regulated activities in a unit.

An infantry regiment of ten companies would have places for twenty company musicians, drummers and fifers, as well as two principal musicians, often a drum major and a fife major.

A cavalry regiment with ten companies would have places for twenty company musicians, buglers or trumpeters, plus at least one principal musician, a chief bugler or chief trumpeter.

Each regiment also had a regimental band - a totally separate organization from the musicians - but most regimental bands were disbanded in 1862, leaving only the bands for brigades and larger units.

With tens of thousands of musicians in the Union army at any one time, the United States government probably spent the equivalent of hundreds of millions or billions of 2016 dollars on military music during the Civil War.

The vast investment in military music is interesting considering that the rank of musician had the highest concentration of teenage and pre-teen soldiers of any rank in the army. The average age of Union soldiers was twenty five, but one study claimed that the average age of drummers was eighteen.

Marlowe's Raid in The Horse Soldiers is based on the historical Grierson's Raid of 1863.

In real life the three regiments in Grierson's Brigade had about 1,700 men on the raid, an average of 566.66 men per regiment, below their full authorized strength. The three regiments had a total of 30 places for company buglers or trumpeters, though it is possible that fewer rode on the raid.

Two buglers are listed in the IMDB full credits of The Horse Soldiers.

Ron Hagerthy (born March 9, 1932) is listed as "Bugler" and is probably the bearded bugler seen in most of the movie. William Wellman Jr. (born January 20, 1937) is listed as "Bugler (uncredited)" and is probably the beardless bugler seen in the final battle scene.

Both buglers wear the chevrons of corporals on their sleaves, point downward as was usual in the 19th century instead of point upward as was usual in the 20th century.

In the modern US army there are relatively many corporal positions and promotion to corporal is relatively easy. But in the Civil War there were only four corporals per company and promotion to corporal was relatively much harder and rarer.

And as I wrote above, musician (often written as drummer, fifer, bugler, or trumpeter) was a separate rank or grade, not an assignment, in the Civil War and Indian Wars army. Being a bugler and a corporal at the same time was about as likely as being a private and a corporal at the same time, or being a corporal and a first sergeant at the same time.

However, principal musicians such as chief buglers often wore insignia similar to a sergeant major's. https://www.google.com/search?q=US+Civil+War+drum+major&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjrsZrr8c7NAhXHNSYKHTc3BIkQ_AUICCgB&biw=1280&bih=913#imgrc=_

Anyway, you can imagine what it might have been like if they tried to imply the presence of twenty or thirty buglers in the brigade. They could show the chief bugler of a regiment selecting which of his assembled buglers would be their orderly bugler at the brigade commander's headquarters that day. Colonel Marlowe could order the charge and his orderly buglers could start to blow the charge. Then then they could cut briefly to the commanders of the three regiments ordering their chief buglers to blow the charge, and then the sounds of the company buglers joining in the call could be heard.

[–] MadTom 9 years ago

Both buglers wear the chevrons of corporals on their sleaves, point downward as was usual in the 19th century instead of point upward as was usual in the 20th century.

In the modern US army there are relatively many corporal positions and promotion to corporal is relatively easy. But in the Civil War there were only four corporals per company and promotion to corporal was relatively much harder and rarer.

And as I wrote above, musician (often written as drummer, fifer, bugler, or trumpeter) was a separate rank or grade, not an assignment, in the Civil War and Indian Wars army. Being a bugler and a corporal at the same time was about as likely as being a private and a corporal at the same time, or being a corporal and a first sergeant at the same time.

Actually, in the movie Gettysburg, Brig Gen John Buford's bugler is wearing corporal's stripes. All the extras in that movie were members of Civil War reenactment groups and were very diligent in their historical accuracy.

The guy playing the bugler corporal was the only person who was a member of both the reenactment group for the 1st New Jersey Cavalry Regiment and AND the real-life present day New Jersey National Guard unit (redesignated the 102nd Cavalry in World War I and then the 102nd Armor after World War II); he and I were both in that Guard unit at the same time (he was a sergeant first class and I was a captain), so I know him pretty well. He would not have made an error of rank insignia, especially in a movie like Gettysburg.

[–] magolding-94772 9 years ago

Here is a link to the thread "So how many guys would there have been?" in the Fort Apache (1948) board. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0040369/board/thread/162616259

I quote:

I'm working off of my knowledge of WW II units and numbers, but it seems like there would have been quite a lot of men at Fort Apache, and thus out on the final charge.

Colonel Thursday was in command of a regiment. A company would be about 150 guys or so, and three (if not more) companies would make up a battalion, so we're up to around 500 soldiers. There would be three (again, if not more) battalions in a regiment, and now we're up to at least 1,500 men, and this would not include any of the support elements - i.e., the supply wagons and their men, that Captain York was left behind to be in command of. Seems to me that there would be close to 2,000 guys, no? And since the Apaches have them outnumbered 4 to 1, that means 8,000 Apaches, or at least 6,000 anyway, if you think York didn't include the supply elements when calculating the ratio.

It just didn't seem that there were anywhere close to that many troops in the movie. But of course, that's the point isn't it? That it is just a movie, and they just can't have that many people mounting a charge on horseback.

Or did they go straight from companies to regiments in the cavalry at that time?

In my reply I point out that 1) in those days a cavalry regiment had only 12 companies, 2) that Thursday seems to have only four company commanders meeting with him, 3) that only four company guidon flags are seen, and 4) that in those days the authorized strength of a company was only about 100 men and that companies usually had about 40 to 60 men available for duty.

J.W. Vaughan, in With Crook at the Rosebud (1956) discussed the length of General Crook's column on June 17, 1876 right before the Battle of the Rosebud. He quoted an officer who served in the US cavalry when they still used horses about the probable length of Crook's column.

Unfortunately, the military expert overestimated the column length a bit because he assumed that 1876 units would be the same strength as (approximately) 1936 units. Fortunately, although Vaughn didn't notice that error, he did have an appendix with a list of all the cavalry and infantry men he believed were present at the battle of the Rosebud - presumably those listed as present for duty during the May-June muster rolls of their companies plus all those listed as killed and wounded in action. I counted about 900 men listed in the fifteen companies of cavalry for an average of about 60 men available for duty per company, thus making for a somewhat shorter column than the military expert estimated.

The 19th Century army was different in some ways from the modern army.

If you look at online lists of members of various Civil War units prepared by state adjutant generals after the war, you will see columns with ranks listed. Colonel, captain, corporal, lots of privates, etc. etc. and you will see many with "musician", "drummer" , "fifer", "bugler", or "trumpeter" in the rank column. That seems to prove that cavalry buglers and corporals had different ranks and it would have been (almost) impossible for someone to be both at the same time. And different rates of pay for musicians and corporals would also seem to make it (almost) impossible for someone to be both at the same time.

Of course it would be possible to honor a bugler for some reason by appointing him a lance corporal, and the honored bugler would probably want to wear corporal's chevrons while remaining a bugler. But TWO in a brigade like in The Horse Soldiers?

Anyway, you might want to contact your friend from Gettysburg and see if he has any arguments in favor of Civil War cavalry buglers wearing corporal's chevrons or if he agrees with me that was a goof.

07/09/16

Another way the 19th century army was different was the wearing of medals. This was the way to wear Medals of Honor in the 19th Century as demonstrated by Captain Thomas Custer of the 7th cavalry:

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/index.cgi?id=302468225474

See also the threads "Not a Goof" in the F Troop(1965)board:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0058800/board/thread/176781380

and "Captain Brittles medal" in the She Wore a Yellow Ribbon (1949) board:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0041866/board/thread/71899786

[–] MadTom 9 years ago

Anyway, you might want to contact your friend from Gettysburg and see if he has any arguments in favor of Civil War cavalry buglers wearing corporal's chevrons or if he agrees with me that was a goof.

Just heard back from him. Here's what he said, so you're both right.

"He's right for the most part. I had corporal stripes to represent the senior musician in the regiment, which was the case in some state regiments."

BTW, his name is Sergeant First Class Duncan C. MacQueen. I mentioned him in an entry on the Gettysburg trivia page:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0107007/trivia