Commies in church


At the beginning of the last segment, about tracking down the Red spy ring in NYC, Chip's narration says that Communists threatened the home, schools, and churches..."And yet," he says, "Communists could be found in all these places." But a few minutes later, when they're pursuing Whitey on his spy excursion, Chip rather sarcastically narrates that, because it was a Sunday, "He couldn't be going to work....Since he was a Communist, he couldn't be going to church." Oh? Why not? Didn't he just say that Communists could be found in "all these places", including church? Maybe he would have attempted to pass the hollow coin to Metzger on the collection plate -- you know, he puts it in the plate on one end of the pew, and Metzger fishes it out at the other? "Couldn't have been going to church" -- such smug hypocrisy! Tsk-tsk. Look at the FBI's very own Robert Hanssen (BREACH). Now there was a church-goer!

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< Look at the FBI's very own Robert Hanssen (BREACH). Now there was a church-goer!>

And Hanssen was even a member of Opus Dei. I had never quite figured out his (Hanssen's) motives for his betrayal. I know that some of it was money, but there was more to it than that. I think that there was also a secret glee in getting away with treason, and also to show the FBI a thing or two. What do you think, Hob: anything else?
I don't think it was ideology so much.

PS Did you see Bullitt? The guy who played Whitey played the shotgun man in that film.

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Yeah, Whitey was played by Paul Genge. That same year he played the desk cop in the Glen Cove police station when Cary Grant is brought in for drunk driving in NORTH BY NORTHWEST. (By the way, the north shore of Long Island doesn't have cliffs!) He had one line, if I recall: a sarcastic "Really?" when told they'd picked up Grant for driving under the influence. He was also an airplane passenger in THE CROWDED SKY (1960). I should check his bio, but I don't think he was in a whole lot of films. Come to think of it, as much as we see of him in THE FBI STORY, he only has one line in that too: "I don't know what you're talking about!" when they nab him in Broadway Joe. (I went to grade school a couple of blocks from Yankee Stadium at the same time they were filming there, so those last NYC scenes always bring back distant childhood memories!)

As to Hanssen, I think basically you're right: not so much ideology, as an utter contempt for others, a desire to show what he could do, to get away with it, prove everyone else is an imbecile (as he often makes plain). Plus, I think he thought he deserved the money, because he was so much smarter than the others, and he wasn't paid enough or getting the credit or promotions he thought he merited, and so had "earned" it. The money was a tangible expression of the recognition of his abilities, his superiority over all others, but I agree, not his primary goal. His air of moral superiority and oppressive moralizing to others was an outward sign of his controlling nature but also of his corrupt private behavior: not only the treason, but his videotaping his semi-pornographic sexual exploits with his wife and selling the tapes, and his obsession with commercial pornography (they never really explained this aspect very well in the movie). Most people who adopt a veneer of self-satisfied morality are in fact corrupt on some inner levels, masking their own flaws -- usually involving sex, money and hate -- by expressing disdain and intolerance of others. This is not at all uncommon with religious "leaders", but affects people in all walks of life. In Hanssen's case, his very rigidity and smug rectitude would be tip-offs to some sort of illicit behavior beneath the surface...all justifed to himself as acceptable, because he himself is such an upright, moral, superior man.

I think people like Hanssen and Aldrich Ames should have been executed for the harm they did, to the country but much more for the lives lost due to their treason. You didn't realize I was a right-wing left-winger, did you, Gary?!

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<I think people like Hanssen and Aldrich Ames should have been executed for the harm they did, to the country but much more for the lives lost due to their treason. You didn't realize I was a right-wing left-winger, did you, Gary?!>

I wish that there were more Democrats like you, Hob. You make sense: in fact, you remind me of Scoop Jackson, and that, in my mind, is a compliment. Somewhat liberal on social issues, he was also a staunch anti-communist, and had no illusions about the intentions or capabilities of the Soviets. He is one of the few Democrats that I have voted for.
And I also agree: both Hanssen and Ames should have been hanged.
As an aside, Whitey's case is a screen portrayal of Rudolph Ivanovich Abel. I don't know why they didn't use Abel's real name because by the time the film was made in 1959, Abel, who had been caught and tried two years earlier was well-known. They didn't hesitate to use the real names of the 1930's gansters.
Strange.

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Yes, Abel had been fingered by a defector named Reino Hayhanen, a Soviet of Finnish extraction who had assumed the identity of a person named Eugene Maki. Maki had been born in Idaho in 1919 and taken with his family to the USSR in the mid-20s, when they left for what they believed to be the people's paradise. They managed a few unhappy letters home but these eventually stopped and by the early 50s few people in the obscure town of Enaville, ID, remembered them. Hayahnen was given Maki's identity and got a US passport under that name in Helsinki in 1952. He eventually went to NY where he spent five years as a spy before being ordered to return home, at which point he decided he'd had enough of the Soviet Union and defected (in Paris). He used to use a drop in Ft. Tryon Park in Manhattan as well as Central Park and other locations. Brought back to the US, he eventually i.d.'ed "Mark", Rudolf Abel, who was his second contact (his first had been recalled to Moscow in 1956). All this took place in 1957-58.

And it was a hollowed-out nickel that became the first clue, found in change by a kid in Brooklyn getting payments for delivering The Brooklyn Eagle (a good and long gone local newspaper), in 1953. The coin broke apart and microfilm fell out, he later mentioned it to a girlfriend, who in turn told her father, a policeman, who in turn notified the FBI. They interviewed everyone who had had the coin but could turn up nothing right away. Amazing the chain of coincidences that allowed this first clue to surface. The nickel had a heads side minted in 1948 but a tails minted between 1942-1945, when the material (from scarce nickel to copper-silver) and design (the mint mark was placed over Monticello) were altered for wartime production. Funny they'd use two different coins for this, though maybe that was supposed to be a quick tip as to its i.d. Didn't work, did it?

We can assume the Maki family were all long dead.

I guess they invented a phony case because Abel was still around and they may have had further use for him...as indeed they eventually did, swapping him for Francis Gary Powers in 1962. The gangsters were all dead and of even less use than they were when alive.

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I wish that there were more Democrats like you, Hob. You make sense: in fact, you remind me of Scoop Jackson, and that, in my mind, is a compliment. Somewhat liberal on social issues, he was also a staunch anti-communist, and had no illusions about the intentions or capabilities of the Soviets. He is one of the few Democrats that I have voted for.


Man am I getting tried of that bull if you're a liberal then you most also be a commie.

As a long time Liberal I believe in total freedom, something the commies wouldn't have

See some stars here
http://www.vbphoto.biz/

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I agree, vpilutis. As a long-time liberal myself, I have always known there is nothing "liberal" about Communism. It's the antithesis of everything genuine liberalism stands for. Yet there does seem to be an indulgence for present or former Communists, who adhered to a doctrine repressive of human rights, among many in the so-called intelligentsia -- one that is never shown to adherents of Fascism or other rightist oppressive isms or regimes. Human rights are universal, and you can't overlook, excuse or minimize violations of them just because the people doing it are considered to be vaguely on your own side of the political spectrum.

When I hear idiots on the right claim that Obama is a socialist -- which is both preposterous and demonstrably false -- I realize how ignorant many people really are about liberal vs. conservative philosophies.

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Thanks for your reply hobnob53 I myself wouldn't do anything just because a person or group is liberal.

As an individual I don't always agree with certain liberal's viewpoints.



See some stars here
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As an individual I consider myself fairly liberal but I always try to judge things on reality, on the facts as best we know them. This is why I have little time for conspiracy theories, doctrinaire responses or similar turns of mind where people try to twist (or ignore) the "truth" so that it conforms with their preconceived ideas or ideology. I have no regard for people of any stripe, but particularly ones of intelligence and education, who engage in such warped and dishonest practices. I don't mind being wrong but not when it involves willful blindness and culpable stupidity.

Harsh words for Thanksgiving!

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Hob, would you mind if I asked you a favor?
I have been trying to locate a series of 16mm films that were put out by the Civil Defense folks in the 1960's. I first saw them when I was in high school. As I recall, there was a series of about six or seven films, and the title of the series was Medical Self-Help. They showed the civilian population how to care for the sick and injured during a long period in which no medical care was available. And of course, their being made in the 1960's, the main disaster that the Civil Defense folks at the Pentagpon were concerned with was a Soviet nuclear attack. They covered everything from the three defenses against radiation, to fall out shelter design, to emergency childbirth. They were NOT the 'Duck and Cover' films.
I have looked all over hell and tarnation for them but have not been able to find them.
It just occured to me that the New York Public Library may have them. Could you check this out please? And it might be noted that they are government-produced films, so I think they are in the public domain as far as copyright goes.
Thanks.

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Sorry to butt in, gents, but, having had a couple of good chats in the past with Hobnob, I was wondering what he was talking about these days, and saw this conversation. I don't know if this helps, but here's a link to a site specialising in the sort of films which you are after:

http://picpal.com/mentalhygiene/mentalhygienefilmswqr.html

It seems to me that you might want the one entitled "Atomic Scare Films Volume 2", which appears to include the medical self-help stuff (although I note they also sell the "Duck and cover" films you mention). I bought a disc off them a couple of years ago (the one with Ford's "Sex hygiene"), and it came promptly enough, and was okay.

So, if that helps, then good stuff; if it's not what you're after, on the hand, then double apologies.

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Butting in? You're being very helpful as always. Certainly no need to apologize, singly or doubly. I took the "double" precaution of replying directly to Gary's inquiry and commending your help. Our thanks -- doubled!

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Gary, please see my friend tsavc's post in reply to yours (as I'm sure you alrerady have!). Otherwise I'll see if I can track down anything. I'm not in NYC itself but within hailing distance. hob

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I sent an inquiry to them through my regular email account as the website's ordering page seems to have been blocked.
And tsavc, thank you very much. The Volume 2 Atomic Scare Films seems to have at least some if not all of what I want. And like Hob says, there is no need to apologize; in fact your post may be of great assistance in my tracking down these films.
So, thanks again.

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You're very welcome. The website makes the films sound, shall we say, a little on the hysterical side; I'm certainly intrigued, and I hope you get hold of these atomic scares successfully. Obviously, if I find anything else that might be relevant, I'll pass it along.

Cheers, Thomas.

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Thomas,

Just to let you know I haven't yet gotten around to watching K's THE IDIOT yet -- only got the Eclipse set recently, and still have to await a time I can set aside 265 minutes to watch it (I refuse to break it up into different view times!). But when I do I'll contact you over on that board and will then be able to discuss it with you with some measure of intelligence!

And, now, back to THE FBI STORY.....

I assume you've seen this movie. Any views about it for Gary and me to toss about with you?

Eighteen years after this film they made a movie called THE PRIVATE FILES OF J. EDGAR HOOVER, with Broderick Crawford as JEH. Sort of a parallel universe to STORY. I mention this mainly because my cousin, Dan Dailey, made his last film appearance playing Hoover's boyfriend, Clyde Tolson, seen standing next to Hooover near the start of THE FBI STORY, in the scene in Edgar's office.

Please remove the appended (The Idiot!) in your reply title!

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The role I primarily remember Dan Dailey in was The Governor and JJ with Julie Sommars as JJ, his daughter.
Interesting. I did not know that Dan Dailey was your cousin. Any other famous relatives?

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Thomas, are you from the UK by any chance?

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Not really. My mother's uncle was a member of Congress from NY for 32 years and became chairman of the House Rules Committee many years ago. Dan Dailey was in many movies from 1939, first as a supporting player under contract at MGM, then after he came back from the war as a contract leading man at Fox, where he had his only Oscar-nominated role, as Best Actor of 1948 for WHEN MY BABY SMILES AT ME, though he was in many better films. He was I have to say a very versatile actor and dancer -- he could play comedy or drama, he danced very well in many musicals, and sang well enough. Drank a lot, which did eventually take its toll. He died the year after making THE PRIVATE FILES OF J. EDGAR HOOVER, at 63, and that was his first movie since 1962's HEMINGWAY'S ADVENTURES OF A YOUNG MAN. But he was very busy and popular in films for around 20 years. One of his co-stars (in an absolutely terrible musical from 1954, THERE'S NO BUSINESS LIKE SHOW BUSINESS) was the fantastic Ethel Merman, who never got the roles in movies she had on Broadway (literally -- she was passed over for ANNIE GET YOUR GUN and GYPSY, both of which she originated on B'way), and who was my grandmother's best friend growing up in Queens, NY. Somewhat small world.

Thomas (tsavc) will I'm sure answer your post, but he is indeed from England, and lives I believe not very far from my current girlfriend. (Transoceanic relationships ain't, as the Queen would say, easy.) I met him on boards about Ikira Kuroasawa's THE IDIOT and also for the Fritz Lang film BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. A very interesting, thoughtful and informed guy.

We've got to get back to Chip Hardesty present at every major FBI case from 1924-1959! Speaking of 1959, I'm going back to watch BEN-HUR in TCM's tribute to Heston.

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Point taken here. Some times we do get off on our little tangents, don't we?
Obviously, Hardesty was a composite character drawn up from such people as Melvin Purvis, who joined the Bureau in 1927, and who resigned in 1935 after Hoover supposedly got jealous of all the attention and acclaim that he got after he shot Dillinger. In addition to that, Hoover, who approved this film, did not seem to want to give Purvis credit for anything. I notice that the real names (Sam Cowley and Herman Hollis) of the two agents that Baby-Face Nelson shot down were given, but not Melvin Purvis. And Purvis was well-known to the public. So Chip Hardesty got the credit. And at the time, Purvis was still alive, so Hoover, it seems, got in just one more little dig at the man who shot Dillinger. Sad.
And what time did the Osage murders take place? 1925? That was two years prior to Purvis' entering the Bureau. And I have no idea who the agents were who did the work during WWII or who busted the Abel spy ring. All that I can say for certain is that an agent named Chip Hardesty did not handle these cases.

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I'm not quite sure which reply button to press, so I'll just go for the bottom one, and answer all the questions in one go. Yes, I live in England (not far from Oxford), but am half-Australian (and half-English). I'm looking forward to hearing from Hobnob about "The idiot" (and, re our other conversation, did you know, Hob, that Peter Hyams is currently re-making "Beyond a reasonable doubt", with Michael Douglas, and, from the sound of it, a considerably altered plot? I imagine that's not going to be a very pleasant experience, but surely it will spur someone on to putting Lang's original out on disc...).

As far as "The FBI story" goes, I will have to refresh my memory before committing myself, but it's not something I remember terribly fondly. Will get back to you on it.

Have had another little search for Mr Overman's "medical self-help" films, but not come up with much, although UC Berkeley's library seems to have a pretty thorough collection of goverment information films from the war onwards, although that's not going to be much use if you don't happen to be an academic or live in northern California. If you do check either of those boxes, though, it might be worth getting in touch with them. Their website says they don't loan material out under any circumstances, but my own experiences with academic libraries is that they are generally pretty helpful (at least, this side of the Atlantic).

Thomas

PS I assume it was my tripping over myself to apologise for butting in that alerted you to my probably Englishness?

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Yeah, Thomas, you English are always so damn polite!

Did not know of the remake of BARD. If Michael D. is playing the Dana A. role then the age differences in H'wood are really getting out of control! But it sounds like Hyams -- he remade the excellent THE NARROW MARGIN (1952) as the okay but decidedly inferior (and definite-article-less) NARROW MARGIN in 1990, so why stop at redoing just one 50s thriller?

Whilst you check on THE FBI STORY, how about Hyams doing a remake: THE MI5 STORY?

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<I assume it was my tripping over myself to apologise for butting in that alerted you to my probably Englishness?>

Actually, it was your spelling. Americans spell 'specialise' and 'apologise' differently. We spell them 'apologize' and 'specialize'. Gives you guys away every time.
On one IMDb board for The Stand, I did the same to a man from the UK.
Also, certain boards attract more British posters than others. One such was Bram Stoker's Dracula. I exchanged several PM's with a young English lady from Enfield, just north of London. I even sent her the first few chapters from a book that I am writing. One of the fellow posters on that board was kind enough to send me some photographs of a cemetery in London where part of a BBC mini-series was filmed. This was Count Dracula, which is my favorite Dracula, because it is the closest to the book by Bram Stoker. BTW, that cemetery is the one where Karl Marx is buried.

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Well, J. Edgar was rather P.R.-happy when it came to the FBI. Not to mention his predilection for initials.

I've always wondered about the Osage murders myself. I know nothing about that case save for what I saw in the movie, which again I must take with a grain of salt. Looks c. 1925, but I'll see if I can find out anything. Also, maybe, who broke the Abel spy ring. A very able job.

Okay, I'm banishing myself for that remark. Leaving for some weekend meetings on Long Island, but will rejoin you Sunday night. Gary, how's the farm now? You all settled in?

All right, one more: his refusal even in 1959 to permit mention of Melvin Purvis's name sure indicated that J. Edgar must've had a real Chip on his shoulder.

I'll leave quietly. But remind me to tell you about Melvin Purvis, Jr., next time.

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Shame on you, Hob!

BTW, Thomas, thank you once more for your help. Vol 2 looks like it could be what I want. But the guy is out of stock on that tape at the moment.

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Ah yes, the spelling issue. Some militant (republican) Australians once suggested that, as a way of getting over the "cultural cringe", Aussies should adopt US spellings, but I don't think it ever came to anything. Certainly not officially.

Anyway, I'm pleased to have been of help with your search. I trust the chap at "PicPal" will get some back in stock for you soon. I'm slightly surprised not to have found any other (obvious) sources for the films, since I would have thought they would have historical interest for many people Have you tried the American Film Institute? I don't know how helpful they are with random enquiries, but I bet someone there would have information.

I really don't want to distract from "The FBI story", but since you mentioned you were a Dracula fan, I wonder if you know Whitby? It's quite a nice little ex-fishing port which has built up a small tourist industry though the Bram Stoker connections (not entirely tastelessly), and, since the weather on the Yorkshire coast is almost always poor, it's properly atmospheric. The cemetery you mention is called Highgate, and it's a wonderful place (Marx's tomb still attracts plenty of acolytes); the graveyard in Whitby is called St Mary's, and it really does hang over the cliff, as Stoker describes when the giant dog leaps from the Demeter. Plus there's St Hilda's Abbey, properly ruined, and all sorts of other little bits and pieces. Not enough for a special journey from America, of course, but good for fans who happen to be in the country.

Will swot up on "The FBI story" now, and see if I actually have anything to say about Commies in church.

Thomas

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<Ah yes, the spelling issue. Some militant (republican) Australians once suggested that, as a way of getting over the "cultural cringe", Aussies should adopt US spellings, but I don't think it ever came to anything. Certainly not officially.>

That, in addition to your accent, is what gave you away. Oh my!! That was horrible, wasn't it?

<Anyway, I'm pleased to have been of help with your search. I trust the chap at "PicPal" will get some back in stock for you soon. I'm slightly surprised not to have found any other (obvious) sources for the films, since I would have thought they would have historical interest for many people Have you tried the American Film Institute? I don't know how helpful they are with random enquiries, but I bet someone there would have information.>

I'm quite sure that more will be stocked soon. And I'll try AFI.

<I really don't want to distract from "The FBI story", but since you mentioned you were a Dracula fan, I wonder if you know Whitby? It's quite a nice little ex-fishing port which has built up a small tourist industry though the Bram Stoker connections (not entirely tastelessly), and, since the weather on the Yorkshire coast is almost always poor, it's properly atmospheric. The cemetery you mention is called Highgate, and it's a wonderful place (Marx's tomb still attracts plenty of acolytes); the graveyard in Whitby is called St Mary's, and it really does hang over the cliff, as Stoker describes when the giant dog leaps from the Demeter. Plus there's St Hilda's Abbey, properly ruined, and all sorts of other little bits and pieces. Not enough for a special journey from America, of course, but good for fans who happen to be in the country.>

It doesn't hurt to occasionally get side-tracked. Have you seen Count Dracula? Louis Jourdan is the Count, and he does a superb job.
An Englishman has also informed me that the BBC just recently filmed a new version of Dracula. Have you seen it? If so, how did you like it?

<Will swot up on "The FBI story" now, and see if I actually have anything to say about Commies in church.>

I think that you will enjoy it.

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Hey, in Australia one of the main political parties is spelled "Labor".

However did they get away with that?

Sorry to intrude! And with another unfbian comment to boot. Like they say about Stalin's grave, a Communist plot.

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Ashamed of myself!? As Alvin Karpis would have said, "Ashamed? Moi?"

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Ashamed of myself!? As Alvin Karpis would have said, "Ashamed? Moi?">

Actually, come to think of it, your joke about the Chip on Hoover's shoulder wasn't any worse than my telling poor Thomas that I could tell that he was English by his accent. Now, you have to admit, that was bad.

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Yes, very bad. Saw your photo on the FBI's Ten Most Wanted list in the P.O. tonight, just for making that crack.

But you know, in Britain, "to hoover" is to vacuum something up. And a "chip" is what we call a French, formerly Freedom, Fry. Therefore, logically, we must conclude that, in his off hours, the Director would call Agent Hardesty into his office to have him vacuum his snack crumbs off the floor. That was the only FBI work Lucy would not have recurrent nervous attacks over.

Of course, once again, that was actually Melvin Purvis's last assignment before he quit the Bureau and went off to join the Night Table.

Oh, my Melvin Purvis, Jr., story: Jr. became an ordained minister and lived in South Carolina. In 1984 he ran for the US Senate, and enough people recognized his famous name that it helped him narrowly win the Democratic nomination over an obscure rival. During the fall campiagn Jr. attacked the incumbent, Strom Thurmond, on the age issue. Thurmond would turn 82 that December, and Purvis argued that there was little chance Thurmond would survive another term, at the end of which he would be 88.

Well, as we know, ol' Strom was easily reelected then, and again in 1990 when he turned 88, and yet again in 1996 (94), by which point he was the oldest person ever to serve on Capitol Hill, and, amazingly, made it to the end of his term, Jan. 3, 2003, when he finally retired at age 100 (born Dec. 5, 1902). And died a few months later.

And Melvin Purvis, Jr., who so ardently argued against reelecting Strom at age 82? He died of a heart attack in 1986, age 46. Ironic, obviously, but rather sad.

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Speaking of Britian, I hope I didn't make Thomas mad at me.

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Regarding the Osage murders, they took place from 1920-23. This from a book The Story of the FBI a 1954 book by the editors of Look. It also had a forward by good ol' J. Edgar himself.

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Ah, thank you, I couldn't find anything on the Osage cases. But more history-stretching: Chip couldn't have been involved in crimes committed in 1920-23, since, although he was a member of the pre-FBI, in the movie he's shown transferred down to Oklahoma "temporarily" while stationed in Cleveland (none of which made any sense to me -- you aren't "temporarily reassigned" to a bureau hundreds of miles away for months or a year or more, as he was -- you'd just be flat-out transferred, I'd think). Anyway, chronologically, in the film the murders would have had to have taken place around 1926 or '27, for Special Agent Hardesty to crack that crime (...too!). But many of the dates don't quite add up in the movie.

It occurred to me you're now in OK, in proximity, sort of, to the sites of the Osage killings.

Incidentally, if you're familiar with Washington (DC), where I lived for four years, when Chip & family "drive home" at the end of the picture, the route he'd have to have taken in order to pass every single monument in and around the District would more than likely have made him a target for any sharp traffic cop looking for signs of drunk driving.

Oh, by the way, I'm quite sure Thomas took no offense (or, as he would have it, "offence"!) whatsoever in anything you said, none of which was "offensive" in the slightest. He's a very good guy, glad you two "met". One of the great things about IMDb -- how so many of us, from such disparate backgrounds, locales and viewpoints, can come together and become friendly correspondents!

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<Ashamed of myself!? As Alvin Karpis would have said, "Ashamed? Moi?">

I was living about 20 miles away from the federal prison where he was released from when it happened. The local NBC affiliate in Seattle, KING, had a camera crew just off of the ferry in Tacoma, when Karpis was released from McNiel Island. He was then promptly deported to his native Canada. While he was incarcerated there, he gave guitar lessons to none other than Charles Manson.

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A man of versatility and foresight. Karpis diem?

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Absolutely no offence. Work had the extreme ill manners to catch up with me yesterday, so I had no time to post. If only someone would pay me to watch movies and then talk to people like you two gents about them, then things would improve no end.

I don't want to get off-post, but I'll start with just a few words about the plot of the "Beyond..." remake for Hobnob (more apologies to Mr Overman). Michael Douglas isn't playing the Dana role; he plays Philip Bourneouf's role of the District Attorney, re-cast in this version as crooked, and a rampant advocate of capital punishment. Dana is played by some child called Jesse Metcalf, who agrees to set himself up, as far as I can work it out, in a bid to expose Douglas and his string-'em-up monomania. But Douglas finds out... If I have that right, then I imagine the final twist will be that Douglas is revealed to have committed whatever murder Metcalf has framed himself for and is about to be sent to the chair for. Just to make clear, that's a composite of what I've heard (from the net, magazines, etc) and where I would imagine such a plot would go. Obviously, in the unlikely event I'm right and someone gets upset that I've spoilt it for them, then, yet again, I apologis(z)e.

Right, "The FBI story". I'm afraid it doesn't really work for me, partly because I don't think they do a very good job of matching Jimmy Stewart's home life with his work life. I guess the idea was that they would show the sort of domestic existence that the FBI was helping to secure for "ordinary" Americans across the land, in all its happinesses and tragedies, but I would have liked a movie either about that, with much more Vera Miles (probably directed by Douglas Sirk, and certainly much more subversive); or a movie about the FBI. Crashing the two together leaves it neither fish nor fowl. And my other criticism would be how bland LeRoy made it all, just one episode after another, which, given that he once made one of the greatest depictions of lawlessness ever, "Little Caesar", is disappointing. Plus, I'm sure one of you gents can tell me this: the depiction of Hoover, either not seen at all, or only from the back, in silhouette, is exactly the way they used to "show" Jesus, isn't it? Is that deliberate, or a little joke on someone's part, or are we really to think that J. Edgar was, in 1959, God's representative on Earth?

Hope my dissent doesn't offend anyone, and I must say, Hobnob, that I think I prefer your cousin's film on the same subject, "The private life of JEH".

Thomas

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For myself, I basically agree with your assessment of THE FBI STORY, Thomas; it is badly structured and unimaginatively treated, with that persistent, annoying switch back and forth between idealized home life and exciting case-cracking. (I guess you could say it's Veering Miles from one to another.) Somewhere on another thread I quoted the NY Times's DVD reviewer when the disc came out the other year, who liked it in a perverse sort of way, referring to it as "'Father Knows Best' with machine guns." (I don't know if you're familiar with that 1950s family TV program, Thomas, which starred Robert Young and was an enjoyable blend of light comedy and solid but unobtrusive family values -- the first season, 1955-56, just came out on DVD the other week. But Gary, you know what I'm talking about. Loved that show!)

Anyway, the reviewer's description is pretty apt -- I thought it hilarious. What I find especially irksome is the air of smug moral superiority the film assumes, with the Hardestys a bunch of heavy-handed moralists, this dragging God and the Bible into every family crisis, Chip looking down his nose at Dave Crandell (Sam's son) when he has doubts about his suitability to the Bureau, all that. It's too pious and syrupy and self-consciously morally oppressive, and if there's one thing I've learned it's to beware the person who too loudly protests his own piety.

Yet -- this is why this movie is so enjoyable! It's too pious for its own good, too inaccurate too often to stand scrutiny, too sappy to escape becoming camp, too overdone and with too many anvil-like subtlties NOT to be wonderful!

Of course, taken as straight stuff, this is what J. Edgar himself wanted people to believe. A gay, unmarried, misogynist, image-consumed, self-aggrandizing, blackmailing bureaucrat protecting his turf through intimidation and his "private files", conjuring this image of a squeaky-clean, moral, upright, infallible department of honest, fair, single-minded agents relentless in the pursuit of wrong-doers, family men all, church-goers all, accountants and lawyers all (not true, by the way) -- basically, men (not, emphatically, women, except in clerical capacities) who were everything Edgar himself was not. Not to draw a lurid analogy, but it's not unlike the difference between the idealized, and idolized, Aryan Superman of the Nazis, vs. the dumpy, pasty-faced, psychopath with bad teeth and breath, that Hitler really was.

Mervyn LeRoy was a close friend of the Director's and that's why he made the film and of course got the Bureau's cooperation. But the film's uncritical overview isn't merely a sop to Hoover; it's how LeRoy, and many if not most Americans, felt at the time. The thing is, there was a measure of truth to this two-dimensional, oversimplified portrayal, just as the dark underside of the Bureau, and the myths that grew up about it (some depicted in the movie), is also a part, but not the whole, truth of the FBI's history. Human affairs are never so neat and black-and-white.

Fact is, Hoover did a tremendous job in organizing the FBI and making it an effective crime-fighting force, and most of what it's done in its existence is commendable and was of vital importance to the United States. And most of the people who worked for it were indeed honest men earnest about their duties. But there was also deceit, bad agents, botched investigations, misuse of the Bureau's law enforcement powers, a cult of personality around Hoover, all the rest. Crtitcs can't admit to the good side any more than supporters can admit to the bad. Too bad only a few of us rational people remain to try to fairly judge without grinding an ideologial ax!

By the way, while it's true that the shot of JEH stepping up and arresting Karpis is done in silhouette (like Jesus in BEN-HUR, seen only from the back, staring down the Roman guard who had yelled, "No water for him!" regarding Judah's request for refreshment), it's also true that the actor "portraying" Edgar in that shot is plainly terribly miscast -- the voice sounds absolutely NOTHING like Hoover's, and even the shadow looks phony. (And, of course, Hoover didn't arrest Karpis personally -- he hid in his car until the real agents sprang on and cuffed the K-man, and only then leapt out shouting, "You're under arrest!")

BUT -- you do see the real JEH, and his lifelong assistant/boyfriend Clyde W. Tolson, in the silent scene shot in Hoover's actual office, after the opening credits, when Hoover is personally going over the plane bomber's (Jack Graham: who was clearly crackers) file -- something I doubt he really did, but it looked like he was on top of things. The camera work there makes me laugh -- as it reverently pulls slowly away from The Desk, like an awed communicant solemnly withdrawing from the presence of the Pope. But that's the real guy -- guys. And by the way, the two men can be seen in a virtually identical set-up shot in THE HOUSE ON 92ND STREET, the excellent 1945 film about cracking a Nazi spy ring in the US. There's the same basic shot of Clyde hovering (hoovering?) alongside a seated Edgar, ostensibly going over some report, except they're 14 years younger and in black and white. I expect as soon as the film crew left Tolson made right for Hoover's fly, but that's another issue.

Final note...when LeRoy screened the movie for Hoover prior to its release (J. Edgar had veto rights over the content), Hoover arose after the film ended and the lights came on, and, with tears in his eyes, declared it was "Perfect -- just perfect!" A sob from a S.O.B. Again, not to make a lurid comparison with another murderous dictator, but when they screened the WWII Soviet epic THE FALL OF BERLIN for Stalin in 1949, everyone in attendance of course was waiting with trembling fear to gauge his reaction -- as he could inflict a vastly more final retribution on those who displeased him than ever could Edgar Hoover. The lights came on in the Kremlin screening room, there was silence for a few moments, and then that old monster rose, turned to the director, and, with tears in HIS eyes, sobbed "That is how it should have been!", referring to the film's fictitious depiciton of Stalin flying into postwar Berlin with throngs of cheering thousands greeting him as the savior of peace. (Actually, he was terrified of flying and skulked in secretly aboard his train.) He then took the director's and actors' hands in his and wept at the beauty of their production. I speak Russian, but frankly don't know the word for "Phew!" But interesting about the common reactions, isn't it?

Oh -- I'll bet in the new BARD, Michael Douglas learns of the guy's scheme but then evilly decides to bury the exonerating evidence and deliberately execute an innocent man, just to shut up someone he doesn't like. Now that'd be a cool plot. Something of which Stalin and Hitler would have heartily approved, and J. Edgar at least have understood, as he torched the exculpating file and went off to the racetrack with Clyde.

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Thomas, it may interest you to know that I have made progress in my search for the MSH films. I contacted a college that I attended in the state of Washington, and the guy there told me of a library database. Using this database, I found a listing for them at Suzzolo Library at the University of Washington, so I contacted them. They did not have them, but the lady gave me something that was useful: the names of the individual films themselves. There seem to be a few more than I thought there were. So now I can start looking for them in the Okie State database. I also contacted my congressman (your equivalent would be MP, I suppose) at the suggestion of my college's guy. He has resources that I don't dream of having.
Also, using the film names, I can perhaps do a better search through our National Archives. Is government great, or what? Being a staunch conservative, I would have to answer that question 'very rarely', but this is one of the times that it is.
So, why don't you hye yourself on over to some of Hob's and myself's other threads? I'd love to have you and I'm sure Hob would as well.
As you say in the UK: "Cheerio"

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Awesome post, Hobnob - very informative, as always. I somehow doubt that anyone in the Soviet Union would ever have been allowed to be as ironic about "The fall of Berlin" as people are about "The FBI story". The "Father knows best" thing is hilarious (the sit com was imported and anglicized over here, by the way, so, while I don't think I've ever seen an episode of either version, I know what you're talking about). I must say that I'm rather relieved the picture isn't considered some sort of classic in America, but the lameness of the structure and style is sadly typical of the way LeRoy's work went the older he got (see also George Stevens, I guess, and a few others).

Yes, I think that your plotting of "Beyond..." is exactly right. Or, at least, that's how I'm imagining it playing out. I'm going to have to go and see it when it comes out, just to find out whether I am (we are) a Hollywood script writer in a parallel universe, but my main interest in it/only reason for taking note, is that it should (surely, surely) inspire the release of a disc of the original (at the very least a region 1 disc).

Thank you for the invitation, Mr Overman, which I shall take you up on if I can find something I feel I can add to. Between you and Hobnob, my own knowledge of movies seems pretty small, but look out for me popping up without warning somewhere soon (rather like a Commie in a church, I suppose). With regard to your "medical self-help" films: are the individual titles listed here on IMDb? Please keep us informed. You've piqued my interest now.

Thomas

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<Thank you for the invitation, Mr Overman, which I shall take you up on if I can find something I feel I can add to. Between you and Hobnob, my own knowledge of movies seems pretty small, but look out for me popping up without warning somewhere soon (rather like a Commie in a church, I suppose). With regard to your "medical self-help" films: are the individual titles listed here on IMDb? Please keep us informed. You've piqued my interest now.>

Please call me Gary. Here in the colonies we are not quite so formal as you folks across the pond seem to be. I hope you do join us, and I will certainly check out the individual titles on IMDb. I will, however, be surprised to find them.
Actually, when you come right down to it, Hob is the real expert here. I am fairly good in certain types of films (post-apocalyptic, for example) but when it comes to all around knowledge, Hob is the man.

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You're a staunch conservative, with an interest in post-apocalyptic movies? Uh, should I be worried? (!)

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<You're a staunch conservative, with an interest in post-apocalyptic movies? Uh, should I be worried? (!)>
But of course, my friend. And just to add fuel to the fire, I also have an interest in GUNS!! *cackle, cackle* (laughing madly!!!)

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I am duly warned, Gary. I wonder if you would agree that "Mad Max 2" is the greatest film ever for big explosions in a post-apocalyptic world? Matchless in every way for me.

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<I am duly warned, Gary. I wonder if you would agree that "Mad Max 2" is the greatest film ever for big explosions in a post-apocalyptic world? Matchless in every way for me.>

In all honesty, I'll have to watch the film again before I can give any kind of informed answer, but I have all three of them and I am retired so that presents no problem whatever.
Have you seen the ABC mini-series The Stand? It is based on Stephen King's epic novel of the same name. It is one of my favorite books, and because it follows the book so closely, the mini-series is one of my favorites as well. It tells the story of a devastating plague, and what happens to the survivors.
I'm told that it is available in the UK, in case you didn't know.

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Can't imagine it will be much of a sweat re-watching the Maxes. The third one tails off badly in its second half, but, otherwise, it's all fabulous.

We're way, way off post here, but I do remember reading "The stand" when a teenager - and loving it (I devoured all of King's novels up to that time, circa "The Tommyknockers" I guess, one summer: such fun!). The mini-series has been on British television, but I never watched it because it involves such an investment of time. I should make the effort, should I?

I'm sure I won't be the first person to tell you this, but if you like "The stand" (the novel, I mean), have you read Cormac McCarthy's "The road"? Not entirely dissimilar (although in a more serious vein), and, I thought, a very powerful post-apocalyptic vision.

Best wishes,
Thomas

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Strange site, IMDB. One moment it's semi-literate teenagers brawling; then it's someone who personally appeared in the picture; next it's persons of minutest technical and historical knowledge; and then, lo and behold, it's Americans and Britons who can have a civilized discussion without the subjects of weight or teeth coming up once!

The FBI story is certainly too long, but apart from that I love it precisely for being so overblown, so of its time, so black and white, so moralistic, so earnest.

Oh by the way, Mr ......, you owe me a dollar. The FBI did come to .... County.

Great stuff.

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"Because Communists dont go to church". That line killed.

Evidently whoever wrote this hasnt heard of the Christian Socialist Movement in the UK proving you can be a Socialist and a Christian which would probably cause a short circuit in your average conservative Republicans brain trying to work out how you can be both.

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Well, it's been argued that the vehemently anti-Communist Catholic Church is the most perfect example of Communist practices ever devised, so a lot of people might have their ideological sureties scrambled. (And before anyone gives me flak, I am a Catholic.)

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