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James Stewart in Rear Window/Vertigo vs James Stewart in Anatomy of a Murder/Shenandoah

posted 8 years ago by ecarle (14979)
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Rear Window and Vertigo are acknowledged classics which seem to have taken a pounding over the years with regard to James Stewart's "prematurely aged" appearance AND his pairing with young beauties almost half his age(Grace Kelly, Kim Novak.)

So be it. I think that folks need to do a little thinking about how different not only the times were back then, but the movies. In the fifties, young men rarely became instant stars. You had to work your way up. Thus, Stewart and Bogart and Fonda and even Grant were invariably too old for their leading ladies. The suave and great-looking Grant pulled it off the best; arguably James Stewart pulled it off the worst. Though Bogart and Audrey Hepburn in Sabrina are pretty hard to take.

But even with that said, James Stewart was a top box office star in the fifties -- he had recovered from a late 40's slump as "the nice guy" and parlayed the simmering rage of his George Bailey into "tough guy Westerns"(Winchester '73, The Naked Spur) and, for Hitchcock...playing some weird ornery guys.

His looks were better than you might remember -- he COULD look very handsome. But his main draw was his great movie actor's VOICE. That was what sold James Stewart -- or Jimmy Stewart as he was known off screen.

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In 1958, James Stewart made two romantic movies back-to-back with Kim Novak. Vertigo, a tragedy, came out first, but Bell, Book and Candle, a comedy, ended the year. And with both films, it seems that Hollywood moguls AND James Stewart realized...he was just too old for such romantic films.

From 1959 on, we often find Stewart playing hardened loners in Westerns. We find him playing a hardened oil company airplane pilot in Flight of the Phoenix(the plane crash movie has an all-male cast less some fantasy woman.) We find him playing family men for Fox(Take Her She's Mine, Mr. Hobbs Takes a Vacation)

And we find him playing a confirmed bachelor in Anatomy of a Murder(1959) and a widower with multiple near-grown kids in Shenandoah(1965.)

With THOSE two movies, James Stewart's great power as an actor and continued value as a star shines through.

Funny thing: not being called upon to woo a woman of any age in those two movies, Stewart ends up looking -- and sounding -- more virile than in his romances. He's a movie star again, perfectly cast.

And ornery , again. His defense lawyer in Anatomy of a Murder really doesn't know if his client is guilty of cold-blooded murder, but he defends him anyway and uses a fair amount of trickery to do so. His Civil War-averse patriarch in Shennadoah starts the movie mean and ornery, his "rage" button always ready to go off. Its as if once sexual romance was taken out of the equation in the 60's, suddenly James Stewart was relevant again. As an actor. As a star. More for his voice than his face, but his face was leathery and strong.

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I'm not sure if Rear Window or Vertigo will ever really appeal to a younger generation who can't understand that James Stewart was a perfectly acceptable romantic star in the 50's. In the 60s -- having frankly used slightly too-old Henry Fonda in The Wrong Man(opposite Vera Miles), James Stewart in Vertigo(opposite Kim Novak), and even Cary Grant(opposite Eva Marie Saint) in NXNW , Hitchcock turned to a younger generation of men as his leads.

Hitchcock movies like Psycho(John Gavin/Janet Leigh), The Birds(Rod Taylor/Tippi Hedren), Marnie(Sean Connery/Tippi Hedren) and Torn Curtain(Paul Newman/Julie Andrews) would restore age equivalence to the male and female leads and nobody was complaining that the men looked too old for the ladies.

Still, its a funny thing. Even with somewhat older male leads(and honestly, Grant and Saint seem very well matched in NXNW), The Wrong Man, Vertigo and NXNW survive as great movies which, we can assume, bothered their audiences very little with regard to the age casting(honestly, those audiences would find Cruise, Damon, and DiCaprio "kids in adults roles" if viewed in 1958.)

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Very good points, thank you for your thoughtful post.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Thank you for reading it!

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Stewart's age actually works well for "Vertigo", or does once you realize it's not the drippy romance it seem to be at first. The relationship between the two principals actually turns out to be based on madness, greed, desperate neediness, and deceit, rather than sexual attraction, and well. Stewart is at an age when men get irrational about beautiful young women. It works.

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Agreed. Though it has been said that Hitchcock attributed the box office semi-failure of Vertigo to "Stewart's aging appearance," Stewart was always Hitch's only choice for the role. I've never read another name even mentioned ( I have offered Sinatra circa 1958 as an alternative, but in real life, Hitchcock swore he'd never work with the tempermental Sinatra.)

In short, I would think that Hitchcock chose Stewart for the role BECAUSE his aging appearance -- and AGE -- would make his obsessive love all the more understandable and crazed.

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But yeah, I have issues with Stewart being cast as the genuine romantic lead in "Rear Window" and "Bell, Book, and Candle", where in two films he's pursued by three beautiful young women in their twenties. Dream on, older men! But yes, they do dream on,

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I suppose that's another issue here. In the 50s, it was older(white) men who had the most money in their pockets, maybe these older guy/younger woman stories sold to them well. This is how the prostitution market works, too.

I think Bell, Book and Candle is the last straw for Stewart's leading man hood as a romantic lead. The role is clearly tailor made for Cary Grant -- -and would likely have gone to Tony Curtis a few years later. But also: Jack Lemmon is in one of his last supporting roles as Kim Novak's brother, and , four years later, for the same director as BBC, Lemmon would be Novak's romantic leading man in The Notorious Landlady, and THAT fit.

James Stewart went "a romantic lead too far" with Bell Book and Candle.

[–] [deleted] 7 years ago

Jack Lemon played Kim Novak's sister?? Did I misread that?

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Ha ha ha ha...

My usual excuse..I was typing too fast. Pictured Jack Lemmon. Pictured Kim Novak as HIS sister.

I've made the correction, but I'll leave the embarrassment.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Tom Cruise and Brad Pitt are in their fifties now,

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But looking like they are in their late thirties. The idea that Pitt and Cruise(and Matt and Leo?) STILL like like boys at the age that Stewart and Fonda and Bogie looked like old men reflects our changing genes, health and fitness regimens no doubt. (Smoking aged and killed Bogie and Gary Cooper young.)

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and they wouldn't dream of making a film with a leading lady their own age, they're hiring women in their twenties to be their leading ladies as well (just like the old days!).

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That will be a hard thing to ditch. I think because men tend to age "younger" than women so Tom Cruise looks OK on the screen with a woman 20-years younger.

Back in the day, Cary Grant made "Indiscreet" with age peer Ingrid Bergman in 1958 and North by Northwest with the much younger Eva Marie Saint in 1959 -- and he looks better matched with Saint! Bergman(sadly) took on a matronly look that aged her in comparison to Grant in "Indiscreet"(not so in Notorious when they were both younger.)

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At least Stewart made "The Man Who Knew Too Much" with Doris Day as his wife, she was a decade or more younger than him but they seemed well matched, at least better matched than Stewart and Grace Kelly.

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I attest that to Day's rather mannish grey suitcoat, an older woman's short, bun hairstyle, and her homespun persona, which matched Stewart rather than clashing with him(ala Kelly.)

What's funny is that Day's male co-stars all said that in real life, Day practically dripped sex appeal, had a great curvaceous body and -- we all know -- had a voice made for sex. But she didn't really use these talents in her films.

Remember: she was offered Mrs. Robinson in The Graduate. (Evidently her manager husband turned it down before Day could even read the script.)

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

"But looking like they are in their late thirties. The idea that Pitt and Cruise(and Matt and Leo?) STILL like like boys at the age that Stewart and Fonda and Bogie looked like old men reflects our changing genes, health and fitness regimens no doubt. "

So why aren't these older leading men who supposedly look younger than their ages hiring actresses who also look younger? Actresses do even more than actors do to look younger than their years, why not reward that effort and co-star with someone age-appropriate!

Rene Russo used to earn a good living doing that, BTW. Back in the nineties she was in her forties, and co-starred with every older male star who wanted someone sexy and sophisticated and who wouldn't make him look like the grandpa he was. Where is today's Rene Russo!

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

So why aren't these older leading men who supposedly look younger than their ages hiring actresses who also look younger? Actresses do even more than actors do to look younger than their years, why not reward that effort and co-star with someone age-appropriate!

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That's tough fact of Hollywood life that may be changing given all the gender-based pushback out there right now.

How women age versus how men age will always be an issue...I'm always demoralized by how quickly actresses seem to go for plastic surgery that gives them weird big fishlips and pulled-back-skin bug eyes. They don't look young that way.

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Rene Russo used to earn a good living doing that, BTW. Back in the nineties she was in her forties, and co-starred with every older male star who wanted someone sexy and sophisticated and who wouldn't make him look like the grandpa he was. Where is today's Rene Russo!

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Well, she's still around. I think she's playing love interest to an aged Tommy Lee Jones and Morgan Freeman in some new movie that came and went.

But your point is well taken. The "well kept sexy older woman" would seem to be casting gold nowadays.

I watched "Big Little Lies" recently and both Nicole Kidman(especially) and Reese Witherspoon seemed to be holding up well. Younger men were cast as their husbands. Kidman seems to have ditched a "Botox" look and actually looks better than she did years ago. Also: after a long hiatus, Sharon Stone is back on HBO and looking fine at 60 or so.

Trivia: Way back in 1965, John Wayne got kudos for playing romantic opposite Patricia Neal in "In Harm's Way." He WAS old, and she LOOKED old...and together in the WWII epic, they gave us a loving and SEXUAL romance between two people clearly over 40, maybe over 50. But that's rare.

[–] Martoto (5034) 7 years ago

Something that must be taken into account is that Hitchcock's films are defined, if by nothing else, as HIS vision. The male characters in all his films reflected something about himself. It is not surprising that he would tend to cast lead male actors closer to his own age when the POV of the movie is often, almost always, Hitch's own.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

It is not surprising that he would tend to cast lead male actors closer to his own age when the POV of the movie is often, almost always, Hitch's own.

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That's true. I think that Cary Grant, James Stewart and (for a famous one-time only appearance) Henry Fonda were only a few years younger than Hitchcock, and pretty much his age peers. Someone wrote that "Cary Grant is the man that Hitchocck wants to be, James Stewart is the man that he is" -- and thus perhaps Hitchcock saw Stewart as Scottie as a means of expressing Hitchcock's OWN yearnings about those beautiful actresses he could only direct(and not have.)

It has also been noted that, came the sixties, Hitchcock elected to go with younger leading men with whom he couldn't much relate: Rod Taylor, Sean Connery, and at the time, the biggest of his young stars, Paul Newman. These guys were hip, macho, and in Newman's case, politically active. But Hitchcock wanted to "stay with the times." Interestingly, after the Newman picture, Hitchcock could never attract a truly bankable young male star again. Attempts to secure Michael Caine in Frenzy failed, and Hitch sent the Family Plot script to Jack Nicholson, Robert Redford, Al Pacino, and Burt Reynolds...but was only able to land Bruce Dern and William Devane. As it turned out, Dern was the most able to relate to Hitchcock and to amused him, but Dern had to work at it.

[–] Renovatio (2990) 7 years ago

Women in their late 20s and in their 30s sleep and have relationships with older men all the time... In real life, today, in 2018.

Yes, it's not the norm, but it happens a lot more than you think...

Don't beleive me, ask you female friemds about any of the sexual experiences or times they've been ssing oldrr men... Ask them to tell you about their oldest, age wise... After they tell you, ask them to think again, because there will be someone older or at a tkme where the age gap was larger... 😉

This dosen't even count the times where it was just sex...

There will always be some rationalisation, money, maturity, experience, fame, etc... it was a phase... the women were finding themselves... They had daddy issues.... the guy was fit for his age, or didn't look that old, etc... it doesn't matter as it does happen in reality.

Also... In 2018, somone who looks like Cary Grant when he was in North By Northwest (55 or so) could probably sleep with women in their 30s if he dressed well... The guy is handsome, women aren't that picky to be honest. It's 2018.

I'm in my 30s and lots of women that I know, my age, love George Cloony and find him irresistibly attractive as he is now... He's 56 years old.

We're not talking about fat slobs here...

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Women in their late 20s and in their 30s sleep and have relationships with older men all the time... In real life, today, in 2018.

Yes, it's not the norm, but it happens a lot more than you think...

Don't beleive me, ask you female friemds about any of the sexual experiences or times they've been ssing oldrr men... Ask them to tell you about their oldest, age wise... After they tell you, ask them to think again, because there will be someone older or at a tkme where the age gap was larger... 😉

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Very true, and everything from the money and power that come with older age(for some men) to "daddy issues" to the fact that some middle-aged men look more distinguished and sexy than boyish younger men..it has been true for ages.

And if Stewart and Grant and Fonda (and Bogart and Bing Crosby) landed young female co-stars "back then," we certainly had folks like Sean Connery and Michael Douglas landing young female co-stars "today"(though Connery's last movie was 15 years ago.)

Cary Grant was, I think, a special case. Its not so much that he looked younger than his age as it seemed, around his fifties, he "froze perfect" for a few years, looking as good as he would ever look and BETTER than the young Cary Grant of the 30s and 40s.

Out here in real life, yeah, I've seen older men get younger women all the time.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Of course, relationships between younger women and older men happen in real life... especially among the sort of wealthy Hollywood bigwigs who are always looking for the next ex-wife.

Which really does give them a skewed view of reality. Among the Hollywood upper crust a plain man of fifty may attract more sexual interest from young hotties than a young stud, if his car and Rolex are expensive enough. But in real life, attractive young women tend to be much more focused on men close to their own age, men they have the most in common with, unless they're ruling out anyone below a certain income level (as is common with the sort of women these bigwigs meet).

Where Hollywood gets it wrong is that they treat relationships with huge age differences as totally normal and founded on sexual attraction, as if the Scarlett Johanssens of the world see no real difference the attractiveness of Jason Momoa and Clint Eastwood. Which isn't just unrealistic - it keeps such relationship from becoming complex and believable. At least "Vertigo" gets it right, Judy is interested in older men because she likes money, and she isn't picky when it comes to looks (or anything else). Of course her relationship with Scotty devolves into a horror based on guilt and obsession, but that's not all there is to it.

Scotty may be twice her age and nothing to look at, but he's the one kind, brave, honest man she's met in San Francisco. He jumped into the bay off Fort Point to rescue her, for chrissakes, when her average date probably considers her the sort of cheap floozy who is unworthy of the sort of restaurant that serves wine. She doesn't just feel guilty about what happened to him, she actually loves him.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Of course, relationships between younger women and older men happen in real life... especially among the sort of wealthy Hollywood bigwigs who are always looking for the next ex-wife.

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Ha, yes. They "trade in." As do wealthy men everywhere. I've gone to some sporting events where one sees the older man and the trophy wife...and they aint' in movies.

But the movie business is in overdrive on these things -- so many men get into the business on the BUSINESS side(they aren't creative types)...to get rich and meet women. Its why the "Me too" stories coming out of Hollywood are already getting compromised as certain men remind us that certain women come on to THEM, all the time. Money, power...

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Which really does give them a skewed view of reality. Among the Hollywood upper crust a plain man of fifty may attract more sexual interest from young hotties than a young stud, if his car and Rolex are expensive enough. But in real life, attractive young women tend to be much more focused on men close to their own age, men they have the most in common with, unless they're ruling out anyone below a certain income level (as is common with the sort of women these bigwigs meet).

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One thing kind of at odds that I've read of over the years: many times, pretty young starlets would grab onto a young boyfriend or husband very quickly -- so as to fend off all the advances of old moguls and agents. Example include Farrah Fawcett with Lee Majors; Jacqueline Bisset with Michael Sarrazin; and that Transformers woman with her hunky boyfriend.

And of course, some women go for the "two fer" -- they marry the older man and keep the younger man "on the side."

In modern times, btw, wealthy older women are doing the same with younger boy toy men....

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Where Hollywood gets it wrong is that they treat relationships with huge age differences as totally normal and founded on sexual attraction, as if the Scarlett Johanssens of the world see no real difference the attractiveness of Jason Momoa and Clint Eastwood. Which isn't just unrealistic - it keeps such relationship from becoming complex and believable.

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That's right. It just kind of looks wrong.

Which is why I guess I will again note that, came the sixties, Hitchcock gave us "age peer couples" like Gavin and Leigh and Hedren and Taylor.

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At least "Vertigo" gets it right, Judy is interested in older men because she likes money, and she isn't picky when it comes to looks (or anything else). Of course her relationship with Scotty devolves into a horror based on guilt and obsession, but that's not all there is to it.

Scotty may be twice her age and nothing to look at, but he's the one kind, brave, honest man she's met in San Francisco. He jumped into the bay off Fort Point to rescue her, for chrissakes, when her average date probably considers her the sort of cheap floozy who is unworthy of the sort of restaurant that serves wine. She doesn't just feel guilty about what happened to him, she actually loves him.

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"Floating in the background" at all times in Vertigo is what I call "the villain who wasn't there": Gavin Elster, who seems like such a good friend to Scottie for his short time in the movie("I'm sorry, Scottie, that was pretty rough -- he had no reason to talk to you that way") and turns out to be a truly evil man. But he's never caught! Meanwhile, as Scottie himself realizes, Judy at first loved ELSTER -- that's the SECOND older guy she fell for in one movie! Indeed, the money, I guess. And a father figure. Judy tells us she left home to avoid predatory stepfather; her own father is dead and she's on her own.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

And the fact that Judy actually loves Scottie(after Old Man Elster "dumped her," as Scottie notes) makes the bell tower climax very sad , from beginning to shocking ending.

We start the movie on Scottie's side. We end it on Judy's side.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

That is IMHO why you can't truly appreciate "Vertigo" until you've seen it several times, and you can see everything from Judy's POV.

Yes, we can assume that her relationship with Elster was largely based on financial interest, she was on her own and was the sort of low-rent girl that a man of means would never take seriously. Finally, a rich man! We assume that she went along with the plot, because she'd do anything to hold onto him. And once we can empathize with her, we see her fall in love with the only decent man she's met in SF, and halfway through the film we see that she's lost both her rich lover, and the man she loved in spite of herself. She's got NOTHING ZIP NADA DIDDLY when she meets Scotty for the second time, and things go from there.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

That is IMHO why you can't truly appreciate "Vertigo" until you've seen it several times, and you can see everything from Judy's POV.

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Yes, I agree. For the all the emphasis on Stewart's age, or the degree of madness he enacts as Scottie...the movie is heartbreakingly, really about JUDY.

And the fact that Judy is part of a murder plot is another Hitchcock hat trick: I don't think we ever see her as " a villain." Though Scottie does at the end -- the cop in him HAS TO.

Side bar: good ol' wandering Scottie really messes up two women in Vertigo: Judy...and Midge. Midge spends her 2/3 of the movie wanting Scottie but knowing she can't really have him...and she leaves the picture devastated by her inability to connect with him and knowing that he loved another woman MORE. Perhaps Vertigo is more of a "chick flick" than it lets on. Scottie's selfish and self-centered ways ensnare two women as the story goes along, both come out of things badly, one dead.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Yes, we can assume that her relationship with Elster was largely based on financial interest, she was on her own and was the sort of low-rent girl that a man of means would never take seriously.

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"I've been picked up before," Judy tells Scottie. Yeah, by Elster among others.

Film critic David Thomson wrote a book called "Suspects" -- which gave historical backstories to a bunch of movie characters, including quite a few Hitchcock characters. Thomson did a write up on Judy Barton that had Gavin Elster discovering her -- in a San Francisco strip club! I'd say Vertigo doesn't really suggest that -- Elster probably met her while shopping at Magnin's.

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Finally, a rich man! We assume that she went along with the plot, because she'd do anything to hold onto him. And once we can empathize with her, we see her fall in love with the only decent man she's met in SF, and halfway through the film we see that she's lost both her rich lover, and the man she loved in spite of herself. She's got NOTHING ZIP NADA DIDDLY when she meets Scotty for the second time, and things go from there.

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Yep, its all very sad. TWO men mistreat her, and all she wants is love(and some money yes -- but Scottie doesn't have as much as Elster.)

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I think that David Thomson and some other critics have toyed with the fact that Judy comes from Kansas -- because in the famous 1956 movie "Picnic," Kim Novak plays a woman who FLEES Kansas, after her lover, Bill Holden. We can surmise that Holden -- a poor handsome man -- dumped her, too and she ended up in San Francisco.....

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Interesting theory about the strip club, because as I've said before - Judy does NOT fit into Magnins.

I'm from the Bay Area, and FYI Magnin's was the toniest department store in the region back in the day. Prices were on a par with Nieman Marcus, which probably pushed it out of existence, but the taste level was much higher. I don't remember saleswomen specifically, but I expect they were perfectly dressed and made up, with the best of low-key taste, like the salesgirls in any upscale store.

Judy doesn't fit into that. I saw the outfit she wears for the Judy-meets-Scotty-outside-Magnins scene at an exhibit, and it's ugly on screen and worse in real life... none of the shades of green match. Her blouse, skirt, belt, and scarf all clash slightly, in addition to the then-shocking lack of a bra, and absolutely none of that works for a high-level saleswoman. So what's she doing there? If she's coming off shift with the other salesgirls she apparently does work there, I can only assume she slept her way into the job. Which is not at all incompatible with a background in stripping.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

So what's she doing there? If she's coming off shift with the other salesgirls she apparently does work there, I can only assume she slept her way into the job. Which is not at all incompatible with a background in stripping.

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You know your San Francisco history! And you know who might work at Magnin's back then.

Well, we've all known some women who have slept their way to this or that. (I know I have. It was shocking about the first two times I found out.)

And a "strip club" in 1950's SF might be more of a burlesque house. Carol Doda wouldn't turn up til the 60's. David Thomson opined that as a stripper, Judy Barton would have an athletic body all the better for swimming in SF Bay.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

I saw the outfit she wears for the Judy-meets-Scotty-outside-Magnins scene at an exhibit, and it's ugly on screen and worse in real life...

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So it still exists! Or existed...

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none of the shades of green match. Her blouse, skirt, belt, and scarf all clash slightly, in addition to the then-shocking lack of a bra, and absolutely none of that works for a high-level saleswoman

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One of the problems I have with Vertigo -- even accounting for the different styles of the fifties -- is that Kim Novak looks too matronly as Madeleine and then sort of grotesque as Judy in that outfit, with that hair, those eyebrows, that make-up. Its almost a clownish effect to me -- and all the more proof that Kim Novak DID give a great performance because she had to act while looking like that. Only the lack of a bra really gives Judy much allure.

Novak said she played Judy USING the personal misery of having to dress like that and to look like that, and I have always pointed to "Bell Book and Candle" of the same year -- also starring Jimmy Stewart, but directed by Novak's lover at the time, Richard Quine -- as showing how Novak could look at her BEST: hairstyle and clothing of HER choice.

Put another way: I find the look of Judy Barton in Vertigo to be a serious flaw of the film. I can't think of another woman in another movie who looks like that!

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

"Put another way: I find the look of Judy Barton in Vertigo to be a serious flaw of the film. I can't think of another woman in another movie who looks like that!"

That's because she was meant to look like a low-rent slut with zero taste, which is rare in films of that period.

Elster must have put a lot of time and effort into teaching her how to dress and move and speak like a woman of taste and breeding, and you'd expect her to hold onto some of that if she wanted to meet another wealthy man. So that's the one thing about this film that doesn't make sense, after she runs through her Elster money she goes back to being a low-rent floozy... even though it'd benefit her personally and professionally to hold onto her Madeline polish!

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Although now that I think of it, she probably ditched everything about her that could remind anyone of Madeline Elster, out of fear of discovery. Who knows, maybe as a Magnin salesgirl, she waited on the sort of people who knew Elster or the Elsters. She had to look as different from Madleine as possible, so different that only an obsessive madman would spot the resemblance.

And perhaps she was reclaiming her identity, after all that time spent being "Madeline".

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

As with many Hitchcock characters, some motivations are left mysterious. Hitchcock said he did the same thing with plot points -- so as to promote "the ice box trade" -- people taking food out of the ice box after the movie and discussing the movie for flaws or questions(how quaint: not "refrigerator trade"?)

And a BIG character flaw for Judy -- so it would seem -- is that she stayed in San Francisco after the murder took place. I think Scottie chastens her for that in the bell tower. Or maybe I read it somewhere.

So yeah, she ditches Madeleine, but she still looks enough like her(and sounds like her, and acts like her) that Scottie is attracted.

What we in the icebox trade can assume are several points: Judy indeed ran out of Elster's money so had nowhere to go but back to work; Judy LIKES San Francisco; and maybe, just maybe, Judy's been waiting for the chance to see Scottie again. Who knows, maybe she stalked him for awhile , kept up on his institutionalization, made sure she was "around to be seen" when he got out. But NOT as Madeleine...

She certainly lets Scottie into her life quickly when, on first meeting, he is a pretty insistent guy, a total stranger it would seem -- but she's already in love with him, all she's got to do(she thinks) is win him over AS Judy and...happily ever after.

[–] jasonbourne (1027) 7 years ago

You're right to compare and contrast Judy and Madeleine here. The real Judy isn't what Elster taught her to be. What I've discovered is that when Scottie sees Judy and later wants her to dress and look like Madeleine is he's become obsessed to the point of necrophilia. He's just gone bonkers over this dead woman. He's got to have her even if she's dead. Yet, it doesn't work with Midge as we've seen earlier with her and Carlotta. This sexual perversion comes across the screen and we accept it and reject it.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

One of the things that I like about "Vertigo" is that it's both incredibly elegant, yet so perverse!

[–] jasonbourne (1027) 7 years ago

I got to think that's why the critics have been reviewing this movie for years and it's why they have it as the best film of all time over Citizen Kane. Another thing I found out afterward was AH's use of colors. It's done right from the beginning and throughout the movie. I thought using it at Ernie's (think bordello) was outrageious lol. In case you haven't seen it -- https://youtu.be/scmHVYYZZ3w.

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

Of course "Vertigo" is one of my favorite films of all time. It's beautiful to look at, has what may be the best score of any film, the best performances either leading actor ever gave, and a fantastically perverse romance at the center of the film.

But IMHO the REAL reason the critics have been voting it the best of all time, is that it's one of the very few films that improves on repeat viewings! You really can't appreciate this movie on the first screening, or the second, you can't really appreciate it until you can see absolutely everything from Judy's POV. And well, film critics have to see films lots of times...

[–] jasonbourne (1027) 7 years ago

[–] Otter (24464) 7 years ago

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

Apparently there's a deleted scene that was meant to be the last in the film - where Scotty and Midge hear news if Elster being arrested on the radio. It didn't make it into the final cut, probably because it lacked emotional impact, but its existence does indicate that Scotty went after Elster.

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This scene was filmed and can actually be viewed on the "Vertigo Special Edition" DVD.

In the scene, Scotty dejectedly walks into Midge's apartment at night and she silently pours him a drink. Neither of them speak for the entire scene. But the radio is on, and a newscaster announces that the police are hunting for Gavin Elster in Europe and will extradite him for trial.

So...in this version..Scottie survives(he doesn't jump off the roof to follow Judy); Scottie and Midge re-unite; and Elster will likely be caught(Scottie likely told the whole tale.)

Hitchcock didn't want this scene used, it was dangerous to shoot it. But I think he shot it to make sure he could release HIS version...he had this shown to the studio to keep them calm and to give them "insurance" with the actors filmed before being released.

[–] jasonbourne (1027) 7 years ago

I like this and do remember seeing the scene you are talking about. Hitchcock was right in determining this is something that the viewer discusses. He left it ambiguous. Scottie was talking like a detective in drawing out Judy's involvement and that she got money and Carlotta's necklace. Was Scottie going to overlook what she did? This would mean problems with the code. It also would bring up Judy/Madeleine's guilt and that she jumped because she was exposed. It was the nun that surprised her, but her life would've ended one way or another.

ETA: I just thought of another way to look at Madeleine's jump. Maybe she got Vertigo due to being found out while Scottle lost his. This would explain her fall.

[–] ecarle (14979) 7 years ago

>>e: And the fact that Judy is part of a murder plot is another Hitchcock hat trick: I don't think we ever see her as " a villain." Though Scottie does at the end -- the cop in him HAS TO. <<

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I know you guys were talking about older men and hot twenty-something women, but c'mon an accomplice to murder must have some effect on a regular guy and even more on a detective! That would be a deal breaker. What if she didn't slip and fall off the tower? Wouldn't Scottie arrest her? He's going after Elster for the big one isn't he? I can't see their relationship going further and she's more of a stripper type than a young sales chick at Bloomingdale's.

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I've always figured for 1958 audiences seeing Vertigo, under the Hays Code of the time("Crime cannot pay"), once Judy revealed to us(in her unsent letter) that she was an accomplice to murder, the audience KNEW...by the film's end, Judy would either have to die, or have to go to trial and prison. (Hitchcock said he hated the cliché of a lover saying "I will wait for you.")

So one of those "has to happen endings" ...happened. Judy dies. But I think the audience is pulled enough this way and that in that final bell tower scene to FORGET the ending that must happen. They are trying to figure out how Scottie and Judy can make it.

Truth be told, maybe they could have made it. Elster was the greater villain, subject to the worse sentence. Judy might end up with minimal jail time and probation. Scottie(already familiar with institutionalization himself) would conjugal visit and wait.

Except...it was murder. Pre-meditated murder.