MovieChat Forums > South Pacific (1958) Discussion > If not MITZI, then who??

If not MITZI, then who??

posted 18 years ago by robm256
105 replies | jump to latest

Let's assume Doris Day, had been given the role as Nellie Forbush in "South Pacific" which most people of these message boards wanted anyhow. Now let's also assume Doris Day had to pull out of the movie for some reason or another.

Who WOULD have been everyones choice to play Nellie in the movie in those circumstances, at THAT time of filming, during the latter part of 1957. Which other actress's at that time could have filled Doris Days boots, so to speak.

Audrey Hepburn
Elizabeth Taylor
Shirley Jones
Deborah Kerr
Mary Martin
Mitzi Gaynor

The top two mentioned actress's defintely would not have what it takes for the role. They didn't look right for it and also neither had a proper singing voice. Shirley Jones was was ideal for both, in looks and singing ability but she had just come off "Oklahoma" and "Carousel", so she would have been definitely out of the running for a third R&H movie. Deborah Kerr starred in
the King and I but she was dubbed in that, and she did not look like a Nellie Forbush to me. Now Mary Martin was a fine "stage" actress and a very good singer, who if the movie had been made a few years earlier would have been ideal for the role. But by the end of 1957 she was too old for the part.

So which other actress at that moment in time could have filled the role of Nellie Forbush, instead of the "abscent" Doris Day. For me, the only solution could have been MITZI GAYNOR, who had talent in abundance. She looked very pretty, sang beautifully and was a more than average actress. She had gained a lot of experience in other movies including "Anything Goes" and "Les Girls", so Mitzi was now primed for a major movie role. That is my opinion of course, so let us hear YOUR choices for the role in 1957, in the abscence of Doris Day.

"Darling ELLIE was the apple of my eye - Now she's in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] rorysa 18 years ago

As on the other thread, I'm voting for Martin, even over Day. Too old for the part in 1957? It wasn't that many years since she had stopped doing it on Broadway. And in 1960 she taped the version of "Peter Pan" we all have seen and loved her in--not exactly an old character.

[–] robm256 18 years ago

Hi rorysa. Thanks for your reply, but your facts just do not add up concerning Mary Martin. She was born in 1913 for goodness sakes. On the 2 disc "South Pacific" DVD Mary Martin and Enzo Pinza are seen in a TV special performing songs from "South Pacific" from 1954. Before I checked her age on the internet I thought she looked rather too old to be playing Nellie then, in the TV "clip". She was in fact 41 years old then, so by 1957 she would have been 44 years old. Mary Martin had talent both as an actress and a singer, but age was definitely against her for the role of Nellie.

In the original Broadway play Nellie Forbush was 19 years old. In the movie version Mitzi Gaynor was 28 years old, which was pushing it a little bit, but Mitzi got away with it, as she looked a young 28. So Mary Martin could not have played Nellie at her age. In fact if she had, she would have been OLDER than Rossano Brazzi!! when indeed the age gap should have been at least 25 - 30 years difference!!

"Darling ELLIE was the apple of my eye - Now she's in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] rorysa 18 years ago

Then Martin STARTED doing the role on Broadway when she was 36! Did she look 47 in the 1960 version of "Peter Pan"? And I don't know where you got that Nellie was supposed to be only 19, but Gaynor did not look 19!

[–] robm256 18 years ago

ALL the information is contained in the two commentaries that accompany the 2 disc DVD, even the commentators thought Mary Martin was too old to play Nellie in 1957, which I agree with, as Nellie was a YOUNG nurse who falls in love with a much older man.

No Mitzi did not look 19, but she didn't look 44 either!!

"Darling ELLIE was the apple of my eye - Now she's in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] justoldbill 18 years ago

I assume you opened this target range simply to shoot down anyone else's opinion of a good Nellie Forbush. Lord, let it go.

[–] robm256 18 years ago

Actually you are right justoldbill. I asked the question "If not Mitzi, then who??" so I will do the right thing and just read other peoples opinions on this subject, instead of being critical of their choices. I would still be very interested to read other peoples ideas or suggestions for the role of Nellie. That is why I opened this topic in the first place.(I will not criticise their choices).

"Darling ELLIE was the apple of my eye - Now she's in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] justoldbill 18 years ago

In that case, I'm throwing Florence Henderson's hat in the ring. It would seem that the only thing she would have had against her is a lack of film experience and the national public recognition needed. She already had worked for/with R&H in the National Company of OKLAHOMA! (and would do so again in THE SOUND OF MUSIC), and with Joshua Logan in FANNY. They knew what she could do. Before THE BRADY BUNCH, she was the perfect R&H ingenue, reaching that peak with THE GIRL WHO CAME TO SUPPER and the Lincoln Center production of, guess what?, SOUTH PACIFIC.

Of course, it would have been foolish, even suicidal, to put the weight of such a big project on her shoulders, even though they had lucked out with Shirley Jones in OKLAHOMA! They probably knew lightning couldn't strike twice, and that a Nellie with a name and know-how was called for. OKLAHOMA! was a big project but SOUTH PACIFIC was bigger. I'm not saying for a minute she should have been in the film. I'm saying that with some previous film experience under her belt, she probably would have been good. She had personality long before she had Wessonality.

[–] robm256 18 years ago

Thank you justoldbill for your choice of Florence Henderson. Can we have other peoples views on who should have played Nellie please. If we get enough nominations for Nellie, I will make a list of all their names, on this subject page.

"Darling ELLIE was the apple of my eye - Now she's in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] mit800 18 years ago

I wish they had gone with Shirley Jones again. She had both the acting and singing talent the role required and was at a pretty good age to pass for Nellies age. She was great in both CAROUSEL and OKLAHOMA (also THE MUSIC MAN)and could have added a great screen charisma to SOUTH PACIFIC (something poor Mitzi had little of).

I don`t think Florence Henderson would have been any better than Gaynor personally. She never seemed meant for the movies (although she got the only decent reviews in THE SOUND OF MUSIC ripoff SONG OF NORWAY). I never thought her singing voice was that great (compared to say, Jones, Andrews or even Marni Nixon)but that`s just my opinion.

[–] norberte 18 years ago

Has anyone considered Jane Powell.

[–] robm256 18 years ago

Very good suggestion norberte, as Jane would have been about the right age for the role.

"Darling ELLIE was the apple of my eye - Now she's in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] rorysa 18 years ago

But not the right voice.

[–] beb11572 18 years ago

Right voice or not, Jane Powell in fact played Nellie Forbush on stage, twice.

First in a 1977 tour opposite Howard Keel, then in a 1980 production in Houston (I believe) opposite Giorgio Tozzi.

[–] norberte 18 years ago

I saw Jane Powell recently on private screenings and was impressed with her goodness and sensitivity. That seems to come across on screen and I don't think this is the case with Mitzy. And speaking of private screenings brings to mind Betty Hutton, she would have been great.

[–] grickards55-1 18 years ago

Thank you robm256 for starting this enjoyable debate. It is really interesting to hear your, and other people's views not only on who would have been the best Nellie Forbush, but on what is probably R & H's most controversial musical. It is to their credit that they stuck to their principles and insisted 'Carefully Taught' had to be kept in the film.
I never did care for Mitzi Gaynor in whatever role she played, so my choices for the role of Nellie are; Mary Martin, Doris Day and Shirley Jones, who seem the ideal candidates along with Lee Remick, the seemingly forgotten Sheree North, who had a superb singing voice, looked right for the part, and was extremely natural on the screen and Queen of the Dubbers, Narni Nixon.
I felt the colour filters added just the right touch as the scenes they were used were in were either revealing people's private thoughts or were fantasy sequences. The way they disappeared after the songs finished, bringing the characters, and ourselves, back to reality was very clever indeed.
It is a shame that Juanita Hall was dubbed for she and Ray Walston steal the film, and to give John Kerr his due, he made the most of an ungrateful part, after all Joe Cable is a typical W.A.S.P. and he played it as such. Thanks to other IMDB members I discovered that Mr Kerr was dubbed by Bill Lee, who also dubbed Christopher Plummer in The Sound Of Music, John Gavin In Thoroughly Modern Millie amongst others, and apparently did many voices for Disney. A fine singer.
Living in England I do hope we can the 70mm version as I saw this film when I was very young and would love to see it again on the cinema screen.

[–] cagskg 18 years ago

I had been thinking that Jane Powell would have suited the part of Nellie Forbush. If you have seen her strong performance as Milly in my all time favourite musical "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers", you may agree with me. In that movie she showed her talents as a singer, dancer and a suprisingly good actress. It was the best role she ever had. In my opinion the two disc special 50th anniversary edition of "Seven Brides for Seven Brothers" is better than the 50th anniversary edition of "Carousel". The Seven Brides DVD includes a very interesting behind the scenes documentary of the making of the movie.

[–] Miro101 18 years ago

I dunno...I think that Mitzi Gaynor, given the limitations the director, Joshua Logan, imposed on her and the other cast members--those wrongheaded color filters and a torpid mis-use of the widescreen, stranding the singer in an inert, sprawling space--she did a fine job.

Gaynor was a bouncy, talented young singer-actress. Let's give the girl a break.

[–] maisonvivante 17 years ago

I never thought all that much of Florence Henderson's voice until I saw some pre-Brady clips of her on youtube. Wow! What a voice! Her later singing can't compare with the early stuff.

I think she would have made a good Nellie in the film version. I'm not sure her acting would have been better than Mitzi's, but her voice was definitely superior at that time. Would it have made a better film? Maybe, maybe not.

I don't know about her singing, but I can see Sandra Dee in the part--just to throw a wild card in there!

[–] theduchess86 9 years ago

rogers and hammerstein got it right for there blockbuster musical, mitzi was perfectly cast, it turned out to be the highest box office musical until the sound of music, they knew what they were doing alright,she came too late in hollywood and would have been a massive star if they had not stopped making musicals, could she have been in my fair lady NO, sound of music NO that was about it really, she became a massive star on tv, and even bigger on stage in las vegas and all around america and canada,, Great triple threat entertainer,

[–] pulliamrl 17 years ago

Mary Martin was matronly plump and 57 years old when this movie was being made.

Mitzi Gaynor was PERFECT as Nellie.

All the proof anyone needs is in the luminous roadshow version on the 2-DVD set.

Gaynor's scenes are simply incredible in anamorphic splendor from the high-def remastering from the Todd-AO negative. The difference between it and the theatrical version is Night and Day!

There are extras on the set, including a TV appearance in 1954 showing Martin and Pinza doing a number on TV...and they looked TERRIBLE. NO WAY could either of them have done the movie.

I'm so glad Doris Day wasn't cast. I think she would have been miscast.

[–] rorysa 17 years ago

The Gaynor fans are getting desperate in their defense:

Mary Martin was born December 1, 1913, which made her 43 at the time "South Pacific" was filming, not 57. She was offered the film, but turned it down, according to Wikipedia. She was thin enough to play Maria Von Trapp and Peter Pan within the next two or three years after the "South Pacific" film. The above poster says how great Gaynor looks in the re-mastered high-def Todd-AO version of "South Pacific," but wants to compare her to how Martin looks in a black-and-white kinescope!

[–] robm256 17 years ago

I cannot believe Mary Martin was offered the role of Nellie in South Pacific!! you cannot give Wikipedia as a reference point, as a lot of information on Wikipedia is exaggerated, if not completely made up!! If Mary Martin had been offered the role of Nellie, surely we would not have turned the role down. I would have thought she would have jumped at the chance of the famous starring role in South Pacific.

We do not have to come to Mitzi's defence at all. Mitzi's truly memorable performance speaks for itself.

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] rorysa 17 years ago

I CAN give Wikipedia as a reference--you can choose to believe it or not. Martin allegedly did not like doing films because she missed the audience connection offered by the stage.

I see you completely ignored my other points.

[–] jacowium 9 years ago

If you want to believe the unreliable Wikipedia rather than the film historian Richard Barrios, then, well, bad for you.

Please click on 'reply' at the post you're responding to. Thanks.

[–] pulliamrl 17 years ago

Martin was 57 years old when "South Pacific" was made...and she was matronly plump. No way could she have pulled off the role on screen.

[–] Miro101 18 years ago

Debbie Reynolds, maybe. But she had a rather thin singing voice, don't you think? She almost certainly would've been dubbed.

[–] mauricelowe86-1 18 years ago

NO NO not Debbie, Gene Kelly did'nt even want her in singin in the rain, as he wanted a real pro, that is why they brought in Cyd Charisse to do the real dancing, Mitzi was absolutley spot on in South |Pacific, great singer , dancer, actress, I think we should be talking about who the leading man should have been, imagine Mitzi with Howard Keel, Gordon Macrae

[–] johnm_001 18 years ago

My issues with Gaynor are that her singing voice is way too mediocre, and her characterization of Nellie is off. She sings about being a "Cock'eyed Optimist", then spends almost the entire film, with a mopey look on her face. If not Doris Day (who is absolutely should have been), then I would have gone with Shirley Jones, without a doubt. Even Debbie Reynolds, over Gaynor. But, my real issue with SOUTH PACIFIC, is that Joshua Logan directed it. He's horrible, and should have never been allowed to do it. He ruins the whole thing with his lack of direction. He was allowed to ruin two other musical film adaptations, as well. CAMELOT and PAINT YOUR WAGON. Mostly, because SOUTH PACIFIC was a gigantic blockbuster of a film, at the box-office.

[–] film-collector 18 years ago

I agree with Johum 001.
Id like to take issues with the marines as well. The Lt. could have been MUCH more robust. It seemed to me that Bloody Mary could kick his a**.
I always felt the story here didnt live up to the music. Its an incredible score.
Im sure everyone has already hacked on Logans decission to use colored gel cells as introductions to the songs. BAD idea. As if the Pacific Isles need any help.

[–] markedjuan 18 years ago

In 1957,Lee Remick, Janet Leigh, Rosemary Clooney, or Shirley Maclaine as Nellie Forbush. But really, Gaynor was an ideal choice for playing the narrow-minded nurse from Little Rock.

[–] mosthappyfella 18 years ago

just one more word about Mary Martin being "too old " for the 1958 film....I agree with the person who wrote that she didn't look 47 yo on the 1960 "Peter pan " tv production...BUT....there is a difference between looking young on stage or an early grainy tv screen agaibnst looking young on a screen so high and wide that even a pimple under your left earlobe looks like mount Vesuvius.
Mary Martin always had an "eternally young " way about her and she projected that very well on the stage...but she could not have hidden her age so well on Todd-AO...there is a reason why she didn't make abny movies after the early 40's...just like Ethel merman and Carol Channing she projected exceedingly well in the theatre but that is a very different business from the movies...although I also agree that Doris Day would have been better than Gaynor(and lets face it : they are both much better looking on screen than Mary Martin !)I have to concede that after looking at the film again on the recent dvd release I can find very little fault with Gaynor....the film is not a masterpiece and the commentators on the commentary track are being carried away just a LITTLE by comparing it to "great filmmaking" and what have you ...but it is entertaining nevertheless(and let's not forget it's story holds a lovely message about tolerance and racial bigotry...not your everyday fare for a musical from that period)...so except for the color filters it's not hard to sit through!

[–] jbart39-1 17 years ago

A recent bio of Doris Day has her packing for Kauai to play the part until final negotiations unravel -- perhaps due to her leeching husband Marty Melcher.

As for Mary Martin, she never projected much on screen. As for her age, there's a story that one afternoon when she flew onstage as Peter Pan a little boy in the theater shouted, "Peter Pan's an old man."

[–] hortensemcgillicuddy 18 years ago

Doris Day would have been ideal to play Nellie Forbush, but y'all missed the one I'd have chosen, even if she needed to have been "borrowed" from MGM: Kathryn Grayson. She had the looks, the voice, and she could dance (if you doubt me, see "Show Boat"). Howard Keel or Mario Lanza would have been suitable as Emile DeBecque, too. This film was a fiasco from start to finish. It was miscast, it was poorly paced, and those colored filters during the musical numbers completely wrecked the movie. Dubbing Juanita Hall's singing voice in the picture, when she did so wonderfully with the same songs on the Original Broadway Cast album, is unforgivable.

[–] readinglips 18 years ago

Debbie Reynolds would have been perfect. (Granted, she was under contract to MGM, but a trade could have been arranged...)

[–] justoldbill 17 years ago

No one has as yet brought forth the idea of Ethel Merman as Nellie Forbush.....

"Ya KILLED a guy? WHY?!?!?"

"LIVE, DAMMIT!!!!"

[–] robm256 17 years ago

I'm not surprised justoldbill. Can you see her playing the lovely Nellie!!!!.............

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] petersj-2 17 years ago

a fun thread.
Mitzi will do me fine.

[–] dmnemaine 17 years ago

What about Shirley Maclaine, Debbie Reynolds, or Jane Powell? All three could sing, dance, and act, and were well-established stars in 1957. However, I do think the role should have been a shoo-in for Doris Day. As far as Mitzi Gaynor goes, I don't think she was the real reason that the film suffered. I think if the actors had been directed to be more upbeat and vibrant than the languid, lazy direction they seemed to be given, the film would have been much improved, and Gaynor would have been wonderful. In her previous films ("There's No Business Like Show Business", "Anything Goes", and "Les Girls") she was very vibrant and bubbly. All through her scenes in "South Pacific", she is wants to get that vibrancy out, but is being purposely held back. I think that anyone given the role of Nellie would have suffered at the hands of the directing.

[–] tday-1 17 years ago

Hi,one can never be too rich or have too many friends. Assuming Mitzi didn't do the part,why skip the girls from the golden age of musicals? Jane Powell and Debbie Reynolds? Either one might have been good,maybe even Kathryn Grayson.

[–] edjavega 17 years ago

Not Kathryn Grayson. She was brunette with a trained soprano voice. Nellie is best as a blonde with a traditional singing style - to contrast with the operatic singing of Emile.

I must say though, to see the bosomy Grayson in the "I'm going to wash that man right outta my hair" bikini would have been interesting...

I agree with the alternate choices of Mario Lanza or Howard Keel as Emile. How incredible they would have sounded singing "Some Enchanted Evening" (did Keel do it on the stage)! I have a CD where Lanza actually sings "Younger than Springtime" and though he does it fine, I think Emile's songs would have been better for him.

Mitzi Gaynor works for me. Shirley Jones or Jane Powell would have worked fine too.

[–] robm256 17 years ago

But surely Jane Powell had a similar style voice to Kathryn Grayson, so your argument about having different singing style fails on that point.

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] edjavega 17 years ago

"But surely Jane Powell had a similar style voice to Kathryn Grayson, so your argument about having different singing style fails on that point."

Oh, you're right. My bad. I just thought of Powell because she had that perky all-American look and personality which would suit Nellie quite well.

So I recant. Was Grayson still young enough in 1958 to have done Nellie? If she was, why not.

But again, Mitzi Gaynor did a great job.

[–] robm256 17 years ago

Yes, Mitzi DID a great job........... indeed a FANTASTIC job. She was absolutely ideal for the part.

"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] Welch57 17 years ago

Having just watched the DVD of 'South Pacific', I agree that Mitzi Gaynor is superb as Nellie. It must have hurt her deeply when she was partly 'blamed' for the film's 'failure'. But audiences loved that movie when it came out, and the magnificent soundtrack album stayed top of the charts for a long time. Mitzi made a major contribution to the success of both. Earlier this week, in Britain, the BBC broadcast a 30 minute 'Stage to Screen' programme about 'South Pacific' and Mitzi wasn't interviewed. Why? In 1958, Nellie and Emile should have been played by Doris Day and Howard Keel who had worked so well together in 'Calamity Jane'.

[–] robm256 17 years ago

You praise Mitzi to the hilt.................then you say Doris Day should have played the part in SP................ODD!!!!
"Darling ELLIE and FRANCES were the apples of my eye - Now they are in heaven I want to CRY"

[–] Welch57 17 years ago

I know, I know. It's just that Doris Day would have been perfect casting for Nellie, especially the year after 'The Pajama Game' (by far her best film musical peformance), but making Doris my first choice for the role does not rule out the fact that Mitzi is terrific in the part. I'm not saying Doris would have been better, but she would have been right, and she was a bigger star at the box office at that time. I read somewhere that she was ruled out because of the unpopularity of her husband, Martin Melcher. Is that true? There are some things wrong with the film of 'South Pacific', but there are many that are right and deserve greater recognition. For instance, in addition to Mitzi, there is Muriel Smith's outstanding (ghost) singing of the role of Bloody Mary - one of the film's greatest assets. Though Georgio Tozzi is given a screen credit - unprecedented (methinks) for a ghost singer in 1958 - the magnificent Muriel is not. By the way, is anyone aware that Miss Smith declined the role of Clara in Sam Goldwyn's 'Porgy and Bess' (1959)? Diahann Carroll was cast instead, and was ghosted off-camera for 'Summertime'. How I wish we could have seen - and heard - Miss Smith in that film!

[–] Harold_Robbins 17 years ago

Doris Day, definitely. Supposedly she was high on the list of possibilities, but they approached her the wrong way - they asked her to sing at a party.

If Day had played Nellie, and musicals had remained strong instead of fading, the rest of her career might have been very different.

"I don't use a pen: I write with a goose quill dipped in venom!"---W. Lydecker

[–] theduchess86 11 years ago

Mitzi was perfectly cast in south pacific, mary martin was never considered, liz taylor screen tested, but got nervous and broke down, susan haywood was also considered but would have had to have been dubbed in the singing, doris day was considered but would not test for the part, also the pajama game and later jumbo bombed at the box office, shirley jones would have been fine, all in all mitzi was perfect, south pacific was the highest ever grossing musical until the sound of music, its a shame they stopped making musical, they went out of fashion, most of them after south pacific bombed at the box office, ask doris day and julie andrews they was in some stinkers, mitzi got out in time, and became a, massive star in las vegas, and later in tv, where she was nominated for 17 emmy awards, golden globe winner (south pacific) las vegas entertainer of the year several times, life achievement award several times and still counting,great entertainer, great lady.

[–] 11 years ago

[deleted]

[–] robm256 11 years ago

Very nice, indeed.

Jeanne, Gloria, Toby, Mitzi, Eleanor (2), Frances, Deborah, Marion, Alice, Darcey - are adorable.

[–] martini-29 16 years ago

Mitzi was fine by me. Shirley Jones also and Jane Powell has always been my favorite. Can't go wrong with any of them.

As for Mario Lanza, Emile really needs to be a hard-as-a-rock bass/baritone, in my opinion. Rosanno had the perfect look and Giorgio had the perfect voice, although it's interesting to imagine what DeSica would have done with the role.

[–] theduchess86 17 years ago

doris day would have been great she was vey talented, but so was mitzi she was great in the part, doris would still have had to contend with rozzano brazzi and john kerr, instead of knocking mitzi who was one of the great talents to come out of hollywood, i think you should look at the leading men, where was gordon macrae, howard keel, or any great hollyood stars at the time, brazzi had his singing dubbed so anyone could have played the part, i did not like this film at all, but mitzi was very good, and as always gave her very best. she was more appreciated in tv and the nevada night clubs where she was top draw year after year, doris would have been box office in the part, but the film broke all the box office records without her, i think like mitzi, doris was wasted in hollywood, mitzi quit when musicals were not popular, and doris made those silly comedies, which are very dated now, both doris and mitzi should have been in all the top musicals, both very talented, but hollywood being what it is put non musical stars in musicals which all bombed at the box office.

[–] Mrs_Phoenix 17 years ago

I am sooo not a Doris Day fan. The only movie of hers I like was Love me or Love me. So I really would say a big NO to her being cast in South Pacific. I didn't have a problem with any of the casting in South Pacific. But for the sake of discussion I would agree with the suggestions of Shirley Jones and Jane Powell and throw Ann Miller into the ring too. Although not a blonde she definately has the right 'quality' and was a fantastic singer and dancer. And I loved John Kerr and would not have replaced him at all!

Hannah: There are worse things than chastity, Mr. Shannon.
Shannon: Yes: lunacy and death.