Questions..***HUGE, HUGE SPOILERS*** Is that warning enough? - Some Came Running (1958) Discussion

[–] ginbelt 15 years ago

I can't answer your question (what her redeeming qualities were), because I quite agree with you. I've seen the film many times, and was watching it most recently on TCM just last week, and my wife commented (and I agree with her) that the Shirley MacLaine character is also WAY better-looking, too. Ok, so she's not as smart, I guess....but her personality is more interesting. As a man, I too see nothing appealing about Gwen. I have never understood her appeal...other than the fact that she is "respectable" in town, and maybe he's never been with such a woman.

Some men like "the chase", so maybe another reason Dave goes after her is because she resists his advances?

I dunno...it couldn't possibly been for her personality, or looks though, that's for sure.

reply

[–] uncleernie1973 15 years ago

I think Sinatra at the end felt sorry for her more than anything, and was also hurt by the games Gwen kept playing. He was not really into her and didn't do anything to her, she sort of tagged along with him.

reply

[–] moviemusicfan 15 years ago

Was there ANYTHING and I mean anything redeeming about this schoolteacher that would make ANY MAN fall in love with her.....money maybe , I don't know!!

Well, she liked his writing. That seems to have mattered to Frank Sinatra's character.

reply

[–] corriganville 14 years ago

I thought (and I have no way of knowing for sure) that Shirley Macaine ran to see how Frank Sinatra was and was shot accidentally by Raymond. I don't think she got in the way intentionally as she wasn't facing Raymond. Only my opinion!

I did think the Frank Sinatra - Martha Hyer romance didn't quite click.

reply

[–] mike-848 14 years ago

As I see it (and I didn't read the book), Dave's interest in Ginnie was purely physical. He only really treated her good when he was drunk. She was a party girl and when he sobered up, he really didn't want to be around her. I didn't see it as her reputation that turned him off so much as her lack of education and 'intelligence'.

Gwen on the other hand was very intelligent besides the classic beauty and breeding she possessed. (I know you feel differently but I think she was a babe). Dave treated Gwen good when he was sober because she could match him intellectually and was a knockout. The kind of girl a writer would marry.

What Dave didn't seem to realize was that Gwen thought of him the way he thought of Ginny. Gwen hated that world of sleaze (though I think she may have secretly admired it).

Dave could pass between the worlds of sleaze and booze and class and brains because he was a man in the 1940's where as Ginny and Gwen could not. For women it was either one or the other. It's the Madonna/whore complex. Gwen you marry, Ginny you just party with.

Gwen put conditions on her love for Dave in that he sober up and become a gentleman and when he kept falling short, she would chill him out. Ginny's love for Dave however was unconditional. She would love him if he was drunk or sober, successful at writing or not. Dave realized this when Ginny told him that she didn't understand him or his published story but loved him anyway and there was nothing wrong with that. Sinatra's acting was great in that scene. You could see the epiphany moment on his face when he realized that Ginny taught him the one thing that Gwen never could do and that is how to love purely and simply. He realized Ginny was the one to marry.

And to answer your last question, I feel that Ginny did take a bullet for Dave. Remember, he was wounded and on the ground and Raymond was running around the other side of the booth to finish Dave off and Ginny threw herself on Dave to take the shot in her back. Again, Ginny shows what pure unselfish love is and this time she pays the ultimate price.

BTW, I hear the ending in the film was different from the book.

reply

[–] out-of-towner 14 years ago

I agree with the comments by mike-848. Dave was attracted to Gwen because she was his intellectual equal, while Ginnie clearly was not.

reply

[–] out-of-towner 14 years ago

I agree with the comments by mike-848. Dave was attracted to Gwen because she was his intellectual equal, while Ginnie clearly was not.

reply

[–] mspatera 14 years ago

Great comments. Right on the mark. I was totally thrown by the ending, but with your explanation, it makes sense.

The original ending has Dave dying, which I think would make more sense in that he lived a sad, wasted life and lost it as soon as it started to have meaning. Sinatra wanted the ending changed so that audiences would have more sympathy for Ginny and MacClaine would get an Oscar nom (which she did). I thought this was outrageous, but your explanation makes it work.

Thanks, Mike.

reply

[–] mdonln 9 years ago

mspatera says > The original ending has Dave dying, which I think would make more sense .

I think it's a better movie because the ending was changed. It's not because I had any sympathy for Ginny, I did not like her; it's because she was, in my opinion, the main distraction in his life.

...he lived a sad, wasted life and lost it as soon as it started to have meaning

'As soon as it started to have meaning'? You've got to be kidding! In my opinion when Dave decided to marry Ginny he threw away his last hope for a decent life. He was as good as dead. If anyone thinks he would have been able to have a marriage with Ginny, they must be drunk.

Her stupidity annoyed him. He said he could help her but some people cannot be helped. Ginny didn't understand him and he didn't really understand her. She did things that got him into trouble even when she was supposedly trying to look out for his interests. The way things turned out is exactly how they would have turned out sooner or later.

Kudos to Sinatra; if he did suggest the ending we saw in the movie it means he truly understood the character. As I said, marrying Ginny was his death. He didn't need to die twice. Her death made more sense. He was freed and hopefully learned his lesson.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

reply

[–] hodie1 10 years ago

I just saw it. After the first shot Dave was on the ground. Ginny turns around quickly, then turns back to Dave and moves to cover him. It seemed almost instinctive to me. She was gonna protect him.
I have no idea what the attraction was with Gwen. She seemed like an ice queen for most of the film. I guess she was different from the usual women he knew.

reply

[–] RRozsa 14 years ago

I had the same question, so I ran it back and watched that part again. She clearly took the bullet for him. The guy shot him in the arm, and she stood planted between him and Dave. As soon as he started firing, she ran and threw herself on top of Dave. Whether he was aiming for her or not, her only thought was to protect Dave, so she acted accordingly.

reply

[–] mdonln 9 years ago

RRozsa says > Whether he was aiming for her or not, her only thought was to protect Dave, so she acted accordingly.

That's not what I saw but maybe it's because I disliked Ginny so much. If Ginny was concerned about Dave I think she would have run to him immediately. She didn't do that. She saw he was hit but stood there. Then, when her thug boyfriend started shooting again, she seemed to be trying to get out of the way to save herself. When she was hit she fell and turned around ending up on top of him.

I see Ginny as a selfish person who actually would have been flattered by some grand gesture like Raymond shooting Dave over her. In her pea-sized brain that would translate to proof positive that the guy loved her. Dave certainly didn't love her. Ginny kept telling people, he followed me all the way from Chicago. She liked that. She led the man on so I'm happy she was the one killed.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

reply

[–] RRozsa 9 years ago

I guess that's one way I define a great movie -- some plot points are not spelled out, and are left up to each viewer's imagination. Each viewer is expected to develop our own as to what is being implied but not shown or talked about in the movie, so that things that are said or done in the movie can be interpreted in different contexts, according to different points of view.

I saw Ginny portrayed as a very simple-minded, uneducated girl from a rough neighborhood, who was viewed by everyone (including herself) as the lowest of the dregs of society; yet I think she was essentially a good-hearted person, whose heart reached out to Dave, who was an exciting, attractive "rebel" from a respectable family in a respectable town, and that was very attractive to her. She may have been selfishly motivated at first, in hope of riding his coattails and somehow bettering her station in life through association with him, but I think she began to truly care for him over time. All his family and hometown viewed him as a "black sheep" -- a lazy, irresponsible bum who had been blessed with talent, good looks, and could have been a real "success" (as they defined it), but had "thrown it all away" on bad choices and bad company, and could never be assimilated into "respectable" society, with their values and social mores. He was an embarrassment to themas a second-class citizen -- they disapproved of his choices and lifestyle, and felt he had squandered the opportunities granted to him by nature and by birth, and they rejected him. I believe she was probably the only woman in his life who liked and admired him just as he was; all his family and associates in "polite society" had judged him to be lacking in character -- the , and I think Ginny saw him through different eyes. Even Gwen made it clear that she felt he was wasting his writing talent and I think she saw him as an ugly duckling that needed her encouragement in order to be a swan. Ginny saw him as a swan already.

One scene which further convinced me that Ginny's love for Dave was "true" and genuine, was when Ginny went to talk to Gwen, her rival, in person. This must have taken enormous courage for Ginny, on several levels; 1) physically going into a prim, respectable school, the likes of which she had probably never even seen, much less attended regularly or graduated from, which was completely out of her comfort zone. Ginny must have felt self-conscious and conspicuously out-of-place. 2) She also must have felt tacky, trashy, and cheap compared to Gwen, a real "lady" who was impeccably dressed, stylishly coiffed, and well-mannered. Yet Ginny resolved to initiate a face-to-face, woman-to-woman conversation with Gwen. 3) Ginny laid it on the line to Gwen, allowing herself to be vulnerable by being candid and self-disclosing, with the sincere objective of making sure that Dave would not have his heart broken by Gwen. Ginny was prepared to bow out of the picture, if she felt Gwen would make him happy. It had to take a lot of courage for Ginny to ask Gwen outright what her intentions were, in order to satisfy herself that the teacher wasn't just "toying" with Dave, because Gwen didn't want to see Dave hurt.

I think Gwen was taken aback by Gwen's ardor, and I think she was faced with the realization that her own feelings for Dave were conditional -- she was treating him as a project, with the intention of helping him "meet his potential", and only then would she be free to truly love him. She saw Ginny as a person who was Gwen's inferior in every way; however, Ginny loved Dave unconditionally, just as he was. I believe Gwen was really upset to discover this about herself, which is why she lashed out at Dave and pointed out the trashiness of his friends and lifestyle. She realized that she only loved Dave's "potential", but would never love him the way Ginny did, unless he changed into the person she wanted him to be.

After meeting Gwen, Ginny probably was fully expecting Dave to end things with her and become engaged to Gwen, so it was an unexpected surprise when Dave and Gwen's romance abruptly ended and Dave asked Ginny to marry him. I think Ginny suspected strongly that Dave's proposal was just a knee-jerk reaction to his break-up with Gwen, and that he might change his mind as soon as he gave it any thought. However, I think instead of analyzing it, she just grabbed the opportunity, believing that once they were married, she would devote herself completely to becoming a worthy wife to love and support Dave, and spend her life making him happy. She wanted to prove herself worthy of him. In that sense, I think her own happiness hinged on Dave's well-being and happiness. So it just seems logical to me that as soon as Ginny saw the shooter aiming at Dave she put herself between the two men, without a second thought.

I would be interested to hear the reasons for your different opinion on these points.

Life is a banquet, and most poor suckers are starving to death!

reply

[–] thecallalilies 13 years ago

I wondered the same thing, but when I thought about it, there were many reasons for him to be attracted to her. She was beautiful in an icy way, and she was very smart. The most important thing going for her is that she really believed in his talent. She was encouraging him to write, and she was a helpful critic. He would be able to talk to her about things that he could never talk about with Shirley MacLaine's character. She was playing hard to get, partly because of his reputation and partly to protect herself. But despite herself she began to care about him.

If they had more chemistry (or were better actors), the attraction might have made more sense. They could have revealed subtle things like furtive glances, tender moments, smiles, a quick touch, etc.

... are in bloom again

reply

[–] Florestan51 10 years ago

Just an opinion (prompted by your heading) ...

I think IMDb needs to ditch this spoiler thing once and for all. Who in their right mind would want to read discussions about a movie before actually watching it, if they don't want to know what happens beforehand? There are already storylines and reviews on IMDb — aren't they enough for someone who hasn't seen the movie? I'd like to see a big warning on each message board:

"DON'T READ THESE DISCUSSIONS IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN THE MOVIE!"

so that we can drop this nonsensical paranoia about spoilers.

reply

[–] hodie1 10 years ago

People want to get a sense of whether a film is a stinker or not before they drop 10 bucks on it.
Is it such a burden to type the word "spoiler" in the heading of a post that you create?
I like people who post spoiler warnings. It's (increasingly) refreshingly polite, and indicates that the poster has some sense of etiquette. I love people who do it for older films like this one. Those people have class.
If a film has the status of a Citizen Kane, I can understand a post entitled "WTF His Sled?" (actual post title from the CK board). In the meantime, I am grateful to those people who are considerate and aware that not everyone wants to read a thread that contains spoilers.

reply

[–] Florestan51 10 years ago

Is it such a burden to stay away from discussions about movies if you don't want to be exposed to specific details of the plot? There are gazillions of places on the Internet — IMDb and elsewhere — where you can read reviews of movies and get helpful opinions on their quality. That's what reviews are for. You don't need to visit discussion sites for that kind of information.

I don't have any problem avoiding the IMDb discussion board before buying or watching a particular movie, nor in finding a useful review of the movie.

This is fundamentally about common sense, not about consideration or respect.

reply

[–] hodie1 10 years ago

You can be as inconsiderate as you like, and I have no doubt you will be.
In my book, the people who post spoiler warnings are just more considerate people than those who don't. They may not think so, but I do, and I'm not sure why that should upset you.
As far as I know, you aren't running things here. If you feel that strongly, take it up with the moderators.

reply

[–] mdonln 9 years ago

hodie1 says > People want to get a sense of whether a film is a stinker or not before they drop 10 bucks on it.

I don't understand this concept at all. People who want to know if a movie is worth the investment cannot have it both ways. How much information is enough or too much? Wanting to read discussions about a movie means they should not care if they encounter spoilers yet they're the ones who get really upset about it.

I know I don't want to know anything about a movie ahead of time so I steer clear of any source that might reveal any information. It's not always easy but it's the price one pays. There is a price to pay for throwing oneself into an environment rich in the very thing you want to avoid. If you climb into a tank of snacks, be prepared to potentially get bitten.

I don't mind typing 'Spoiler Alert' in the heading of my posts but it is a nuisance. The heading is what starts the discussion. To avoid spoiling the movie the headers are often too vague. Those of us who want to discuss a topic end up having to dig for a topic or create new ones thinking they're not already there.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

reply

[–] mdonln 9 years ago

duesouth1420 says > I would like to know what Frank Sinatra's interest was in this boring, insipid, narrow minded woman. She had the personality of a plugged drain and he falls madly and devotedly in love with her in a matter of hours.

Based on how you describe her, I would guess Gwen and women like her, would not be your type. It's odd; I don't hear a lot of people asking what Dave saw in Ginny. Gwen is intelligent, accomplished, mature, confident, independent and attractive. She cares about Dave and is a good influence on him. As Dave says in the movie, he never even knew there were women like her. Ginny and her type are a dime a dozen and can easily be found on any corner.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

reply

[–] mike-848 8 years ago

I gotta agree with your assessment of Gwen. She is described as 'icy' by lottsa posters here but they fail to remember the scene at Gwen's house when Dave takes the hair pins out of her hair to let it down and she transforms into a stunning sexual tigress.

The look on Dave's face is priceless as he didn't really expect her do grab HIM and passionately kiss HIM. I got the feeling from Gwen's face that SHE didn't know SHE had this intense sexual eruption in her that Dave awakened. This was all done just by the looks on the actors faces and it was a great piece of acting.

The scene ends with only our imaginations wonderin if they slept together after that passionate kiss but I feel Gwen may have very well been the one who in the end seduces Dave.

Now Dave has the whole package. A beautiful, intelligent, respectable 'lady' on his arm but a 'whore' in bed.

reply

[–] mdonln 8 years ago

mike-848 says > She is described as 'icy' by lottsa posters here but they fail to remember the scene at Gwen's house when Dave takes the hair pins out of her hair to let it down and she transforms into a stunning sexual tigress.

I agree but I can see how some people may have missed that point. By the time that scene happened in the movie they'd already made up their minds about Gwen. Oh, she's 'this' type. Once put into a specific box it's hard for some people to reassess the way they've defined a person. They've moved on and have stopped considering new information.

Personally, I never understood why some people like to flaunt their sexuality for all to see. Why advertise it to the masses? The only person who needs to know how sexy you are is the person with whom you plan to share that part of yourself. A lot of woman 'put it all out there' then wonder why every guy they meet comes on to them and/or behaves inappropriately towards them. Hmm, I wonder.

Also, while its important, sex is only one part of a relationship. If the couple can't carry on an intelligent conversation with each other, there will be misunderstandings and a lot of problems that probably could have been avoided.

Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

reply