MovieChat Forums > Wanted: Dead or Alive (1958) Discussion > The MaresLeg and Bullets

The MaresLeg and Bullets

posted 18 years ago by vice69
27 replies | jump to latest

It seems to me, from what I've seen of .30-.30 ammo, that the shells in Josh's belt are too long for his gun. Now the only concept I came up with is that because his rifle is sawed down, the longer casings make up the distance what the bullet would travel if the barrel was longer..like a .22 and a .22 long...am I correct in thinking that? If so, from the looks of the shells, he would only fit 3 or 4 shells in his gun. Anybody who could enlighten me in the field of ballistics, i would appreciate it...i love this show though...awesome...

"I'm still here, you bastards."

[–] blauvelt66 18 years ago

josh randall's rifle was a cutdown 1892 winchester in .44-40 caliber, which is a big slug sitting on a short fat cartridge case, like a pistol cartridge (which the .44-40 was). the cartridges on his belt were .45- 70 which are very large rifle cartridges, and i can assure you there is no way they would work in that rifle, you couldn't even chamber it. obviously dramatic license as the .45-70's would show up better on film and look cool.

[–] vice69 18 years ago

Hence the reason you never see Josh reload...Thank You.

"I gotta go down my own road."

[–] 18 years ago

[deleted]

[–] vice69 18 years ago

One word..."Unique"

i dont recall any other show or movie in history using a cut down Winchester, except for that Firefly sci-fi shot but we can forget about that crap. But, logically, b/c of the caliber he gets the power of a rifle, the longer barrel gives a slight longer distance than a pistol, his holster allows a different kind of faster draw, it saves room on his saddle b/c he doesn't need a long rifle and looking at the actual ammo that he could use (not the shells on his belt) he could fit MAYBE 7 shots.

I can bet BLAUVELT66 could give some reasons why and why not it makes a good gun. But it looks freakin awesome, and you wouldn't want to mess with a guy who has a "cut down carbine" as a weapon.

"I gotta go down my own road."

[–] blauvelt66 18 years ago

there is no reason to use that rifle except to look cool. it would in fact get you killed. think about it, there is no practical way to aim the thing and hip shooting is not a practical way to gunfight unless with a shotgun loaded with buckshot ( a sawed off shotgun would have been a more realistic choice.) but frankly non-gun people get very confused on these subjects and the producers could get away with many inaccuracies in this era. i don't know but if anybody cares but here are some random facts about firearms of this era. the 1892 winchester he carries was in fact chambered for .44-40, colt chambered their pistols for this cartridge or even better .45 colt so he had no advantage in power with his rifle and gave up alot in aiming ability. ironically winchester made these 1892's (in small numbers) with a full buttstock and short 14 inch barrels. which would be almost as compact but fully usable and better than a pistol (easier to aim, more ammo capacity, faster to shoot). the .45-70 cartridges on his belt as previously stated would not work in that rifle. they were the first fully contained cartridges adopted by the military in 1873 for the single shot springfield rifle. in 1886 winchester brought out the model 86 lever action rifle which was the first modern and strong (because of the locking lugs)lever action that could handle powerful rounds such as the .45-70. if they had used the model 86 the .45-70 ammo would have been correct.one drawback the 86 was big and heavy and so winchester scaled down the design to add a new model the 1892. same design but smaller and lighter and chambered in smaller and less powerful pistol cartridges (.25-20, .38-40, and .44-40) this is the model mcqueen carried. one last thing if you must have a mares laig check out eagle squadron productions (can't remember the web address but keyword search should find it)you can get an exact replica of any of the one's mcqueen carried made from authentic vintage 1892's. they require a batf permit because of the short barrel length but they are EXACT working replicas. kind of a wordy post, but i hope it helps shed some light on the maire laig.

[–] night_is_silent 18 years ago

Very informative, blauvelt66. Thanks for taking the time.

As Josh_Randall_1958 said in an earlier post, the gun was unique. At a time when television was dominated by westerns, a unique gun could help a show stand out from the huge crowd. Wyatt Earp and his long-barreled pistol, the Rifleman and his modified rifle, and Josh and his mare's leg. That gun was probably intended to be a symbol of the show rather than as a practical firearm.

[–] vice69 18 years ago

Most definitely...

"A four letter Italian word for "goodbye"...Bang...B-A-N-G..."

[–] Tim-O-T 18 years ago

Wyatt Earp had the Buntline Special.

[–] foster1234 18 years ago

The "MaresLeg" Pistol used on this show was probably developed for the show.

One was used by Woody Strode in the first scene of ONCE UPON A TIME IN THE WEST

There is a replica being made here in America search Maresleg. It has a 12" barrell and holds 6 roungs of 44-40, or 45LC ammo. Because they use new actions, and don't alter a rifle it is classed as a pistol. It also has the large lever. Cost about $1500

I'd rather go hunting with Dick Cheney, than driving with Ted Kennedy

[–] gerrythree 18 years ago

The Westerns Channel had a Wanted: Dead or Alive marathon on 6 Sept 1998 that featured a factoid clip on the Mares Laig (their spelling of the rifle). The narrator said that the producers paid $1,500 for the rifle and licensing fees. The first time McQueen fired the Mares Laig, the force was enough to almost knock down the cameraman, so from then on, they put a plastic shield by the camera to prevent damage. So the narrator said. The Westerns Channel was not big on quality control, they spelled Robert Culp's last name as Kulp on screen when describing his recommending Steve McQueen for the role of Josh Randall.

[–] rhoke97 17 years ago

I have seen a lot of discussions over the years concerning the weapon. This was a good one. The one thing I have never seen when talking about the mares leg was some of the problems with keeping it in the holster during action scenes. Occasionally you will see holster "malfunctions". As an example, in one epsiode Randall mounts his horse in a hurry. As he flings his right leg over the saddle the mares leg comes flying out of the holster. You get a glimps of it flying past the horse's head. Fortunately the camera was focused on the left side of the horse. Once mounted Mcqueen turns the horse sliqhtly and looks straight into the camera, apparently looking for direction. He was apparently signaled to "keep rolling". He turned the horse and rode away keeping the horse's right side away from the camera. Can't remember which epsiode but there were others. For its time it was a great show and yes the weapon was cool.

[–] derfball 17 years ago

An "on-line reference" article states ... "For filming, three guns were actually made, each with an enlarged loop on the cocking lever. The first gun differed in the size of its lever enlargement, and the last gun had an octagonal barrel instead of a round one. The actual gun being used could sometimes change from shot to shot in a given scene. While the guns were chambered for the .44-40 round, McQueen wore more impressive looking .45-70 rounds in the loops of his gun belt."

[–] frontrowkid2002 17 years ago

The reason you never saw Josh Randall load bullets into his Mare's leg is the same reason that the cowboys in the old B movies kept shooting their six-guns repeatedly without reloading. It's called fantasy, which is what a movie used to be. Made for entertainment and not supposed to be logical. If you checked the bullet loops in those old westerns, you would see them completely filled. John Wayne even carried a Winchester bullet in the back of his belt. Notice how long it was in comparison with the other ones.Now if the guy was doing all that much shooting, you would think that there would be some empty loops. Notice how many of those guys never count their shots. Same way with the fanning of the sixgun. It looked great on television but the original gun fanner was Charles Starrett who was the Durango Kid. He was doing it way back in the Forties. At one time there were at least 35 westerns on TV each week and so they needed a gimmick in order to differentiate them. That is why you had so many different unique guns/

[–] vice69 17 years ago

you dont see randall reload but loops are empty in later scenes...sometimes...

"They ain't fin'a get me! Imma be on COPS!"

[–] blauvelt66 17 years ago

frontrowkid-the "winchester bullet" you refer to john wayne carrying on his cartridge belt was a .45-70 govt round. he put it there on purpose in the 13th loop. it was used as a kind of crude cartridge counter to indicate how much ammo was used. it was an authentic touch he was taught by western actor harry carey, who also taught him his distinctive walk btw.

[–] mazaldivar 15 years ago

"i dont recall any other show or movie in history using a cut down Winchester"

I can think of a few.

Movies:

Once Upon A Time In The West

ZombieLand

Boss N!gger

Shows:

Brisco County Jr.

Of course, All these shows or films were released long after WANTED: DEAD OR ALIVE was canceled.

A 3-D Spaghetti Western rereleased to theatres cominatyanoir3d.com Comin' soon!

[–] r2626 15 years ago

He reloads in the episode titled "The Martin Poster."

Help stamp out and do away with redundancy

[–] r2626 15 years ago

He reloaded in an episode titled "The Giveaway Gun."

Help stamp out and do away with redundancy

[–] r2626 15 years ago

vice69 I just finished watching the two disc set of season one. In four different episodes he reloads. In one episode titled "Rawhide Breed", It even shows him taking bullets out of his belt. We all know the bullets will not fit, but your statement that it never shows Josh reloading. is not correct.

Help stamp out and do away with redundancy

[–] MisterBerns 15 years ago

Whenever Josh is shown reloading, it is done with a camera angle so you can't see the 45-70 rounds being loaded into the Mare's Laig.

An earlier poster asked about the 45-70 cartridge; The 45-70 came about at the end of the Civil War, when the 1861 Springfield Muskets were rechambered in the 50-70 gov't cartridge. Later purpose-built guns were first chambered in 50-70, then 45-70 (the 1873 Springfield rifle and carbine)

Winchester's 1876 Lever-Action wasn't strong enough to handle the 45-70 cartridge, leading to the Browning-designed 1886 Winchester, which chambered the 45-70 as well as other cartridges. The 1892 Winchester modified and carried by Josh Randall was a scaled-down version of the 1886, designed to fire pistol-sized cartridges like the .44-40 and .38-40.

Marlin also built a .45-70 lever gun, as well.

But in the time frame of the show, 1877, IIRC, there wasn't a levergun capable of handling the 45-70 cartridge. There are other gaffes as well--1892 rifles abound on the show, as well as multiple Colt revolvers with shorter barrels--the 4 3/4" barrel wasn't produced by Colt until 1879.

"...Of all the Thompson Gunners, Roland was the best..."

[–] r2626 15 years ago

I know what you are saying, I was responding to vice69 who said you never see Josh reload in the series.

Help stamp out and do away with superfluous redundancy

[–] silverr8c 14 years ago

The only thing I want to add is that casings are used to make sausage and cases are a component used to make ammunition. Casings and clips are the most offen terms that are usually used incorrectly.

Also Bullets are those thingies that are at the tip of the ammo and comes out of the barrel when you fire the gun, You load ammo or a cartridge into the gun and the bullet comes out when you pull the trigger. The case, primer, powder and bullet are ammunition components

..........................
I bought my sofa at Sofa King, because their sofas are Sofa King good

[–] derfball 11 years ago

Finally, someone who knows what he is talking about! Cheers!

[–] frontrowkid2002 17 years ago

Steve McQueen was required to have a special license to carry that Mare's leg on the set because technically, it was like a sawed off shotgun, an illegal firearm. I believe there were actually three Mare's legs designed to make sure that if one was broken, it didn't hold up production.

[–] mack-29 17 years ago

I just watched the Best of Wanted dvd and noticed how large the rounds in his belt were. So I came here and got my questions about the gun answered. Very interesting discussion.

Just a few random observations:

Speaking of special guns on tv westerns, Nick Adams on the Rebel carried a true sawed off shotgun of some type.

Speaking of problems with the Mare's Leg, in the episode "Reunion For Revenge" there is scene near the end where the gun malfunctions. McQueen and the rest are in a cabin and someone is coming in the door. Josh is backing up behind the door and tries to cock the rifle with one hand. But he muffs it and the gun doesn't cock and he give the camera an "oops" half smile, but since he is far back in the shot and other actors are between him and the camera it is not noticeable unless you look for it.

I was watching the 5th episode of Bonanza which featured Mark Twain, and noticed something interesting. In the gunfight at the end, Little Joe reloads his pistol by removing the entire barrel. I'm sure this was authentic for the time period, but I think they quickly did away with being authentic and gave them all revolvers with the chamber that swings out to the side.

[–] night_is_silent 17 years ago

Wanted had some pretty funny bloopers.

I believe Bonanza was supposed to be set before the Civil War, so that type of gun makes sense. Also, I know the Rifleman had an episode with Mark Twain. I wonder in how many other westerns Twain showed up?

[–] Carycomic 16 years ago

From what I've read, they--the shells--seem to explode more like shotgun cartridges. But, Winchester didn't come out with a lever-action shotgun until the mid-1880's. Which is also the earliest they came out with a lever-action rifle that fired .45-70 caliber bullets.*

So, I like to assume (within the context of the show) that Josh Randall had them custom-made for the Mare's Leg.

*The same powerful type of ammo used in some models of the single-shot Sharps buffalo rifle/carbine.