MovieChat Forums > The Searchers (1956) Discussion > Commanche; masters of torture

Commanche; masters of torture


I read this article this week and haven't slept since just knowing it really happened:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396760/How-Comanche-Indians-butchered-babies-roasted-enemies-alive.html

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Like the scout said in "Ulzana's Raid", you take the 'power' of the enemy you kill-the slower he's killed, the longer you take their power. Apparently the Apache were no slouches when it came to martial ability & cruelty--but they were chased out of Texas by the Commanches. I can't imagine this was a 'peaceful process'.

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http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2396760/How-Comanche-Indians-b utchered-babies-roasted-enemies-alive.html

Great article, thanks for posting. I've tried to counter several of the more idiotic comments calling Ford a racist for his depiction of the Commanche's by explaining that he was portraying them in as good a light as possible based on the facts. It was useless, white liberal guilt for perceived or real past injustices defies and repels all truth and logic unfortunately. They are good at name calling though.


"if it was any good they'd have made an American version by now." Hank Hill

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OP, your selection of this article as a truthful source of historical information astounds me.

Please, do some real research.

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I think the OP is interfering with your PC fantasy that the Indians were all peaceful peyote smokers until the white man came along. They did these things to each other as well. Some sick cultural thing about gaining the strength of your enemy. The raids, such as on Fort Parker, were also part of the culture.

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What's your source? What research have you done? Where are you counter points and PROOF that anything mentioned in the article is not true? Typical PC thinking, it's so because you believe it's so, damn the facts.

The Ottawa tribe were sadistic cannibals, when they helped the French defeat the English at Fort William Henry, the French were horrified to find that they were cooking the English bodies and eating them.

Why don't you do some real research, I'll give you a clue, read some Francis Parkman, someone who only used primary sources vs the edited editorials you're confusing with history.


"if it was any good they'd have made an American version by now." Hank Hill

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Parkman as a source of historical knowledge/ reference? Ha! Cute. Truth is anything observed changes by the fact of being observed and everyone see things colored by their own viewpoint. So that tends to be what we see We see what we want to see Basically the brain is set up that way.Taking information from a variety of sources with a variety of view points & considering if the person saying it has vested intrest Might bring one closest to the truth. Not trying to say it was sunshine and flowers.... but that sources is tainted.

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maria6419,
There are countless firsthand accounts of torture by the Comanches- it is an objective fact, unchanged by any observation. It happened in real time in the real world. Finding a family member's smoking remains dangling over a slow fire makes a pretty strong statement. PS, try spellcheck, and work on your grammar if you are going to make bombastic philosophical statements. It might improve your credibility.

"It ain't dying I'm talking about, it's LIVING!"
Captain Augustus McCrae

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FoolishCarriage, if you're astounded just by someone posting this article, you'd be multiply shocked if you lived in this age, the Comanches wouldn't need to prise your mouth open to remove your tongue!

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OP, your selection of this article as a truthful historical information astounds me.


Don't like the truth huh?

The Comanche were war like by nature and not only did despicable things to innocent white families but other Natives too, long before the white man ever came along.

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The Comanche were very fierce warriors, and they practiced torture. If you read any reputable books about them, you will learn all about this.

As a history major and a Texas native, I have read many books about the Comanche, about kidnap victim Cynthia Parker and her son, Quanah Parker. I think it is very telling that the Comanche managed to force most of the Apache out of Texas, since the Apache were considered to be quite fierce also.

Texas settlers greatly feared the Comanche. After raids, word of tortured and mutilated victims spread quickly. It is not surprising that Lucy was terrified and screamed when she realized what was happening...

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Comanches and Apaches had a lot of bloody battles. The main advantage the Comanches had over them was their superior horsemanship. Apaches were mostly foot Indians and as a result just couldn't cover as much ground.

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An interesting point; it seems the Apaches usually were portrayed (in the halfway decent movies like Ulzana, Duel at Diablo and the Ford Cavalry trilogy) as bushwhackers & 'sneak raiders' rather than 'cavalry charge' type attackers like the Lakota or the Commanches.

If I may ask, what is the source of your info and can you recommend any good reading material on the subjects?





Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Empire Of The Summer Moon covers it. A great read that covers the event this movie was based on, and many other things, including how and why the Comanche was more feared and powerful than any other tribe, including the Apache. Of course they'll be better books to read if you just want to read about the Apache, but there were a few useful things about other tribes in this book.

My life fades... the vision dims... all that remains are memories

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Thanks, I will try to find it in my local library.




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Empire Of The Summer Moon covers it. A great read that covers the event this movie was based on, and many other things, including how and why the Comanche was more feared and powerful than any other tribe, including the Apache. Of course they'll be better books to read if you just want to read about the Apache, but there were a few useful things about other tribes in this book.


It seems though that it was the Sioux who had the most major victory for the Native Americans, the battle of Little Big Horn. That involved over 2000 warriors. The Comanches were undoubtedly very much feared, but they were a relatively small tribe compared to some of the northern ones. I don't remember reading about any Comanche force that large.

In fact, the Comanches actually split off from the Shoshoni tribe of the north and moved south, so they came from them. It seems odd because I don't remember the Shoshoni being considered as fierce of a tribe, but then again the Comanches may have been the meanest rogues among them, and people do change over time.

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The irony is that the Shoshone made friends with France-and later sought to curry favor with Louis & Clark because of harassment & constant raiding by the Lakota Sioux--who they said just swarmed over from the Canadian plains a few decades earlier.



Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Was this from a White supremacist site or something?  affirmative action is keeping me down..wwwaa!!!

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Nothing - facts, scholarship, archaeology - shall sway the liberal agenda and its cartoon summary of history and the people who made it! Let that be a lesson to the inquiring mind. . . Come on fellas -- let's burn dem books, or the library, or ... sumthin'!

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[deleted]

The Daily Mail is an old English newspaper which is obssessed with fawning of the royal family and promoting conservative paranoia and invoking xenophobia.

It normally restricts itself to middle english concerns and contemporary foreign boogeymen. It is unusual, but not surprising, that they would find space among all that to scandalise its readers with reports of alarming activities of heathen foreign peoples in lands that the English violently colonised hundreds of years ago.

What would be surprising is if the Daily Mail ever devoted a fraction of the space of that one report to tell its readers about the vast atrocities committed in the centuries of building an empire that it readily mourns as being lost.

"Who can't use the Force now?! I can still use the Force!" - Yarael Poof

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I take a somewhat different view. I should think there are others not on the editorial board of The Daily Mail who are equally "scandalized" by and who "mourn" the loss of that empire when they consider the groups and governments which have in the "hundreds of years" since taken its place.

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Daily Mail ever devoted a fraction of the space of that one report to tell its readers about the vast atrocities committed in the centuries of building an empire


I'd be surprised if when people talk about the 'atrocities' of 'building empires in the new world' they'd actually be talking about Spain & Portugal for a change;








Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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The Daily Mail is an old English newspaper which is obssessed with fawning of the royal family and promoting conservative paranoia and invoking xenophobia.
You left out their complete and utter obsession with the Kardashians, and the regular glut of articles with headlines that start with words such as "busty", "saucy", or "raunchy".

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For the love of God don't mention THEIR names...




Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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Sorry...

(picture John Belushi's apology to Steven Bishop after breaking his guitar in Animal House)

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First off, you spell Comanche wrong. Second, you are quoting an article from a UK tabloid that was cobbled together quickly to promote a silly Hollywood remake of the Lone Ranger, and it leaves a lot to be desired when it comes to coherence or overall understanding of the conflict at hand.

Yes, Comanche warriors on a raid were savage and brutal, but no they did not always kill babies. More often, if possible they captured children to assimilate into their tribe, which was beset by European disease, false treaties, endless war and starvation which all caused a very high infant mortality rate. The article fails to mention the true nature of episodes like the Council House "fight" which was actually a massacre of a peace delegation. Twelve Comanche leaders came to San Antonio to let the whites sue for peace, since the Comanche were winning the fight for territory at the time. Instead, the Texicans tricked the twelve leaders into a house, locked and boarded all the windows and burned the house down with them inside while their horrified relatives, mostly women and children they had brought to signal their peaceable intentions watched and then fled from the scene, under fire themselves. It was a massacre completely without honor on the side of the Texians, and made peace with honor impossible.

European settlers started the practice of scalping the dead, as a means to collect a bounty on mostly Apache women and children. Yes, the war was brutal and many innocents died. This is the nature of EVERY WAR that has ever been fought. It's only here that the numbers were relatively small and the remoteness of the battlefields led to ruthlessness and xenophobia on both sides. But this "war" lacked coherent leadership on both sides as the Comanche society was not one that employed a central leader at all, and the Europeans were of varied nationality and allegiances themselves, germans, Hispanics of several stripes, slave-owning Anglo interlopers from Tennesse and Virginia, etc. Even if the Comanche had tried again to make a treaty, who were they supposed to deal with? The US Army was all but nonexistent on the plains until the 1870s in Comancheria. The Mexican government was thousands of miles away. The Anglos were fitting a civil war.

The article mentions three excellent books, one fictional but the other two are EMPIRE OF THE SOUTHERN MOON and T.H. Fehrenbach's THE COMANCHES. The fictional one is the LONESOME DOVE series, starting with the titular title. I've read them all and it's only increased my respect for the Comanche way of life and belief system.

Examine the film THE SEARCHERS closely and you will see that it's about an isolated, racist and warlike group of whites who formerly owned slaves, fought against the Union to preserve slavery, practice an antiquated religion and are seen bringing nothing but hatred, liquor, useless trinkets, and genocide to the Indians, even peaceable ones. It's an entire film about how wrong one man can be. He's only stopped by a mixed-blood child of a massacre and the wishes of the girl who was captive, who begs them to just "go" and leave the battle. Ethan Edwards is a man driven insane by endless war and racial insensitivity and he only survives enough to be left "to wander between the winds," as he cursed the dead warrior he mutilated. Hatred is all consuming, and this man in the novel is indeed all consumed, dying in the final fight of sickness that reflects his soul's condition.

Comanche society was broken from the moment they acquired the horse and moved onto the plains, as you will read about in Fehrenbach's book if you care to really know what the story is. The young men were supposed to be fierce warriors to protect the territory and livelihood of the old and the young. But youth and power is a fleeting moment in th elives of most prehistoric bands, and their actions are usually balanced by the wise council of elders, who make peace with neighbors when it is most beneficial to all sides. Here, peace was not possible because the Europeans never once respected the tribes enough to treat them fairly. Meanwhile Comanche culture became perverted by the easy access to the wealth, in the form of horses that the European settlers brought into their midst. Brash young hotheads gained control of the tribal bands and killing and raiding became the preferred method of survival. In some sense, they resorted to terrorism as the only tactic available to them, and it worked for a very long time, so they kept at it. Over time the war of vengeance and counter-vengeance got completely out of hand on both sides, leading to an impossible situation where no one had the respect of the other side enough to make peace, and instead it became a war of extermination.

Who is to blame for this? "Who was here first?," is the usual question but the answer is the Apache, Caddo, Kiowa, Wichita, Tonkawa and many others can claim that. The Comanche, as Europeans knew them were never free from the perverting influence of the culture of the New World invaders, which directed it's greed and hatred upon them and received the same in return. So simple "noble savage" tales don't really apply, and the real lesson is just the usual one about the waste that intolerance brings to all sides.

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So we talkin' the influence of the eeevul white beaners who ran Mejico (who were manipulative enough to sell land to Americans so THEY would form a buffer zone-and THEY-and not Mexican landowners-got the Commanche war lance in the gut) or some other eeevul Europeans.








Why can't you wretched prey creatures understand that the Universe doesn't owe you anything!?

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