MovieChat Forums > A Kiss Before Dying (1956) Discussion > full of obvious plot holes--SPOILERS

full of obvious plot holes--SPOILERS


Interesting faux noir but even on first viewing, full of "huh?" moments.

Plot requires that viewers are unaware that Bud is actually seeing both sisters--a point, in hindsight, that means character's name is never revealed until Dorrie is murdered. (This is jarringly clear in scene when he returns home early in film and his mother makes a big point of addressing him as "Son"--why doesn't she call him by his name or simply "Dear"?)

Shortly after Mary Astor practically recoils in horror when her beloved son kisses her--so unsubtle it immediately raises questions whether this is bad plot foreshadowing or simply bad acting.

Also, what would Bud possibly have to gain by romancing both sisters simultaneously? Notion that he could successfully romance both (even though both live in different cities, without either knowing about him or seeing his photo), kill one, then marry and attempt to murder her sibling to inherit fortune is far-fetched even by B-movie melodrama standards. (And how did Dorie survive being shoved down flight of bleachers without so much as a minor cut or bruise, let alone broken bone or contusion?) When Bud is finally revealed as the sister's boyfriend even the dumbest viewer has already long since figured it out.

Finally, opening credits with jazzy music and technicolor disembodied lips seem wildly at odds with tone of movie--more like something you'd expect in a Frank Sinatra ring-a-ding comedy.

ADDENDUM: Even if Bud *didn't* push Dorie down a flight of bleachers and she simply fell, no one walks away from an incident like that with no injuries. Ridiculous, try it sometime.

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Actually when the film first came out people actually didnt cotton on that it was going to be Bud who was the boyfriend of Ellen. Maybe moviegoers werent as clued up as they are today.

He only started seeing Ellen after he killed Dorothy. If it wasnt going to work with the first one he'd make it work with the second.

Mary Astor's character recoiled because deep down she knew Bud was a ruthless person who would stop at nothing to get what he wanted. Plenty of mothers probably call their sons 'son'. Cant see much in it really...maybe she wanted that distance?

Bud didnt shove Dorothy down the bleachers, she stumbled.

I think its a terrific movie. Great story, great acting and great scenery.

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[deleted]

I read the book and its great. You actually don't realize until they are looking for the killer that you yourself have no idea who he is. A little awkward to pull off in the movie, but although I read the book 2-3 times and saw the newer version, I didn't realize until my 3rd viewing of this movie that the 2nd sister is talking to him on the phone poolside.

Anyway, I thought this movie was awful with awful forewarning music that was too loud and over obvious and awful, stiff acting from everyone. Pauses were too long and scenes that were intended to set up forthcoming action or for exposition took to damned long. Also there were strange interruptions. For example when the sister is in the alley and that woman pulls up the shades and yells at her then quickly pulls them down. That was right out of a stupid amusement park house of horrors get-up. Another that comes to mind is when the sister and that stupid guy, Gordon, with the awful props (thick glasses and a pipe that was never lit - obviously to connnote that he's brillant) are sitting in some lobby and discussing the contents of Dorey's purse and this woman cuts right in between them in this awful "summer" get up - long, long pauses - at one point he pauses, gets up walks over to a garbage can, emptys his pipe - and we are all still awaiting to see what happens next - I thought he was going to say something profound - and, nothing. Another one is when, the sister is getting the address of one of Dorey's ex-boyfriend and the clerk while talking gives this weird little stifled cough. I am assuming it was not part of the script and the director should have yelled "cut!" and reshot the scene or at least edited out the cough.

Everything was shouted out or broadcast at the audience. Whether in conversation or exposition. The college professor exits the chem lab and then pauses lifts up the tube and "studies" it. Why? We know he came out of the lab. Back and forth conversation sounded like two kids in their first high school play. I like old movies and can take the corny, but this was just too awful and obviously made during the "jazzy" era of the fifties. And what about that awful line "Love conquers all." (when Bud leans over the car at the beginning after getting Dorey something for her stomach). It was so corny. Everytime he was trying to be romantic or hitting on someone, his lines were corny and stale. Obviously, the actors were new in their careers and couldn't tell the screenwriter give me better lines for christsakes. By the time Bud shoves poor Dorey off the building, I wanted to shove her. As played by Joanne Woodward she was annoying. When she walked into class after Bud gave her the poison, I felt his pain. Now that was real.

Watching this, I wondered how Joanne Woodward's and Robert Wagner had careers.

And about that fall down the bleachers. I am watching that right now and he does not push her. I believe this scene was setup to show how he may have gotten the idea to throw her off the top of the building (and BTW shouldn't people have looked up and seen him digging around in her purse afterward? ) Didn't anyone react to a body falling of a building? She sure screamed loud enough. Also the bleacher scene is when Gorden sees him and then connects later that he knows who he is. But I agree with the writer. She rolls down the bleachers better than any stuntperson could do it and jumps and says, oh its alright (wha???). The scene does let you see the evil on Bud's face though.

In the book, Bud goes on a tour inside the smelting plant. The father confronts him while they are out on a platform over a huge vat. He pees himself and falls in. Also there are 3 sisters and he kills two and is working on the 3rd homely sister when he is finely figured out. Sorry this is so long, but I've been watching this movie this weekend. I was on here to see who the godawful director was and see if he did any other movies and they got better or were still awful. Its a great story but the screenwriter and director should be shot.

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[deleted]

I'm not sure what you meant by this:
"She rolls down the bleachers better than any stuntperson could do it and jumps and says, oh its alright (wha???)."

That almost certainly *was* a stunt person: they never show her face when she's rolling down the bleachers; and it's very unlikely that they would ever let Joanne Woodward do that stunt. For all we know, the stunt person did get a bit banged up; but it comes w/the job.

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Though this was well done, I think the remake, with Matt Dillon, works a lot better. The later version was better-acted, I think, and maintains the excitement a lot more effectively.

In fairness, as the body of film work builds up, and directors/actors have a lot more work to study, I believe that usually the quality of the later films benefits from that considerably. Just having seen Hitchcock's body of work gives a budding director a LOT to learn from about constructing suspense and maintaining it.

Oddly enough, though, a large percentage of remakes are pretty pathetic compared to the originals. Go figure.

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He wasn't romancing both of them at the same time. When he starting going with Ellen, he had already left Lufton, and many months had passed, according to Ellen when the box with the belt arrived. I agree that the fall would have sent most people to the hospital, but Dorrie got up without so much as wrinkling her dress. Very phony.

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Re timing: when Dorie dies, Wagner is reading a newspaper that says "Easter Fashions" or something. Easter Sunday in 1956 was on April 1 (thank you, Internet!).

Then when Ellen is on the phone with a guy (possibly Wagner), she says, "Of course you're coming for Thanksgiving."

So clearly, it's at least seven to eight months later.

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I don't believe he was seeing both sisters simultaneously. He began dating Ellen after he killed Dorie. When we watch the bleacher scene today it seems pretty hokie, but today we expect and require much, more from films (well practically everything, actually) than they did in the 50's. So I can see that scene working within the original screening. He didn’t push her. Perhaps that scene was created to let us get to observe the less than concerned, even slightly disappointed [she wasn’t seriously injured] look on his face as he realizes he should at least act concerned for appearances. Anyway, does anyone else see a resemblance between Robert Wagner at that age and Rob Lowe.

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I enjoyed the movie, but it's not perfect.

You're right about the opening credits. When the movie started, I thought I had misunderstood that it was a thriller.

Robert Wagner and Joanne Woodward are excellent. Things don't start getting hokey until we spend time with the sister (played by the same awful actress from "The Brain That Wouldn't Die") and Jeffrey Hunter, patently phony as an intellectual.

The ending is contrived and silly. I disagree with you about the bleachers scene. As others on the thread pointed out, he didn't push her. The point of her fall was for us to see his reaction to it. We see that it gives him an evil idea.


... Justin

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More gaping plot holes: Didn't the authorities do an autopsy on Dorie? They'd have learned she was expecting and go from there.

Also, any ballistics investigation of Dwight's murder would have revealed that he never could have shot himself, that the angle and trajectory were out of sync with suicide.

These are such basic elements yet were totally overlooked.

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The police did know she was pregnant.

Bud shot Dwight in the temple of the head to make it look like suicide.



"That's what a gym teacher once told me."

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I thought Bud pushed her down the bleachers hoping that she might have a spontaneous abortion from the fall and lose the baby. When that didn't work, he decided to make her abort by taking pills, and then finally decided to push her from a building and just right off kill her.

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Though I enjoyed this film, I have to admit the acting was god awful. The thing that got me the most was why was it such a revealing moment when Bud referred to the dead sister as "Dorie" at the mines? It was no secret at that point that he'd known and even dated her so what was so revelatory(?) about him calling her "Dorie"? The way Ellen reacted it was as if he'd just revealed for the first time he even knew the girl.


The other thing that struck me as odd......why was Bud still in college at 25? In the conversation he has w/his mother he says something like "Look at me, I'm 25 and nowhere. Maybe I out to quit college and get a job. I don't want to end up w/holes in my shoes like dad" Most people graduate at 17-18, 4 yrs of college puts them at graduation by 21-22.

Also, what was the deal w/Bud. Was he just ambitious and didn't want to be derailed from his plans for a grand life by being tied down w/a wife and baby? Why did he go after the sister? Was he a sociopath who wanted wealth by any means necessary. Did he even care about the Ellen or was he just after the money because I remember in the beginning him practically begging Dorie to reconcile w/her father so they could have money.

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I assumed Bud was at college on the GI Bill. The original book was published in 1953 which would tie in with the Korean War.

When Dorrie turned up at the Spanish lecture, after not having taken the tablets and he ran out, he muttered something about the wound. presumably a war wound, in his side playing up.

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[deleted]

<<The thing that got me the most was why was it such a revealing moment when Bud referred to the dead sister as "Dorie" at the mines? It was no secret at that point that he'd known and even dated her so what was so revelatory(?) about him calling her "Dorie"? The way Ellen reacted it was as if he'd just revealed for the first time he even knew the girl>>

Bud was the one who gave her that nickname. Dorothy told this to her sister Ellen in a letter, shortly before her death. He was the only one who called her that. So when he referred to her as Dorie, he revealed himself as the boyfriend.

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<< Also, what was the deal w/Bud. Was he just ambitious and didn't want to be derailed from his plans for a grand life by being tied down w/a wife and baby? Why did he go after the sister? Was he a sociopath who wanted wealth by any means necessary. Did he even care about the Ellen or was he just after the money because I remember in the beginning him practically begging Dorie to reconcile w/her father so they could have money. >>

Yes, he is a sociopath who wants into that family's fortune no matter the cost. The book is better at conveying this, because half of it is told from his point of view.

He targeted Dorothy because of her family fortune, but didn't expect her to get pregnant. Then he moves on to the other sisters one by one. (in the book there are three, total.)

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The "Dorie" clue was ridiculously weak. After Jeffrey Hunter and the sister make the point about "Dorie" being a private nickname, I knew it would come up later in exposing the killer so I was watching for it. But Ellen refers to her sister as Dorie when they were in the car together at the mine BEFORE this supposed moment of revelation so there was nothing incriminating about Bud using the name.

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[deleted]

No, I just rewound the scene now, and he clearly did not push her. But he certainly didn't seem alarmed or rush to help her. It looked as though he were waiting (hopefully) to see if she was perhaps dead before going down to check on her.

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I just replayed that "kiss" scene a couple of times, and Mary Astor does *not* recoil. She turns her head to the right and looks up and to the right as he kisses her on the left cheek, which is a perfectly natural gesture. And right after the kiss, she smiles at him and asks if he wants some eggs.

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Agreed, she doesn't at all recoil! The OP is wrong on all of his points.
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My dad almost always addressed me as "son"; I don't see why a mother might not do the same thing. As for falling down the bleachers--in my life of bicycling, motorcycling, climbing, and hiking, I've taken lots of falls worse than that one and got up unscraped and unbruised. Sometimes you get lucky.

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