I know in this movie he falls on his knife, and in the stage musical he stabs himself...
...any views on which is 'better' from a plot / character perspective? I played the part on stage and did the suicide - only after running through the full production a few times did the act make sense to me... as I saw it, Billy knew he was doomed (prison / hanging) and didn't want to shame (or face) his family.
I prefer the accidental death (actually, I prefer ALL of the changes from stage show to film, even though this one was Production Code driven).
Billy is a much more sympathetic character when he dies accidentally. And although I agree with your reason for having him commit suicide, it's hard for me to see Billy as the suicidal type. When things got tough, Billy would just leave (he was a drifter; he left Mullins' Carousel)--thus, we get the great line just before he falls on his knife, "Where do you think you're escaping to--the sky"?
Interesting. I do like the flashback element of the film; it makes Billy a lot more sympathetic. For this to be the case, suicide would not be feasible (no chance of heaven).
One of the problems I feel with the original stage show is the fact that from Billy's next appearance after "If I Loved" you he is a very unsympathetic charachter - no love shown for anyone till she admits she's pregnant (and even then little enough apart from Soliloquy).
"When things got tough, Billy would just leave ".. fair point.
For this to be the case, suicide would not be feasible (no chance of heaven).
Carousel is a musical drama/tragedy. Unlike West Side Story and other dramas of that era, however, it repeatedly tries to be upbeat and frothy in between being conflicted and tragic. It is the only R and H. production that I dislike, and I believe that the reason is that it tries to be tragically dramatic and lightly comedic in juxtaposition that is too quick (we've just found out that Billy hit Julie, so let's have a production number about the glories of June in Maine(!)). There is too much complication and "crowding" of the story, IMO, and that includes the death scene.
shareSince I love "Carousel," it will come as no surprise that I disagree with your opinion.
You use "West Side Story" as an example of a musical, in contrast with "Carousel," that does not shift abruptly from tragedy to comedy? Are you aware that before Ernie Lehman shifted things around for the film, the stage show had "Gee, Officer Krupke" immediately follow the rumble in which Riff and Bernardo are killed?
"June is Bustin' Out All Over" does NOT follow the news of Billie hitting Julie, it follows the news that Billie is living off Cousin Nettie and that Julie and Billie are not very happy. In the plot, it is designed to contrast their unhappy marriage with the gaiety of the season. The news about him striking her comes a liitle later and, together with the discussion with Jigger about the robbery, Mrs. Mullin's offer, and Julie's news of pregnancy, precedes the contemplative "Soliloquy."
There is not a big universe of musical tragedies. Both "Carousel" and "West Side Story" incorporate comic relief. What's wrong with that?
Rorysa, have some respect for other's opinions, please. Personally, I agree with Lehman's decision to shift the placement of Krupke. In the film, the song is witty and has a real edge. I haven't seen WSS on stage since it was revived in 1980 on Broadway, but I think having the number after the killing trivalizes it, but there are many, many people who would disagree with me, I'm sure. However, your point about the comic - tragic mix is well made.
Carolyn, what is it about the death scene that you find 'crowded,' in Carousel? Now I find that interesting and would hope that you would expound.
"WE ARE THE PRESIDENT!" First Lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton
I agree with the movement of "Krupke" and "Cool"--those were good changes for the film.
shareHello all -- to continue a general comparison between Carousel and WSS, there are the micro-situations within and between the couples: Billy and Julie, Julie and her cousin, the Snows, the robbery, etc. In WSS there are Maria and her friends, she and Tony, Tony, Riff, and the Jets, the Jets and Krupke, the Sharks and Jets, Anita's rape -- the tragedy that is the catalyst for more tragedy etc. and then the macro-environments of the fishing community and New York's West Side, respectively. Somehow -- and Oklahoma employs the same techniques, in that Jud as the villian with pathos (and humor) is revealed early in the play, and his theme is "played" throughout, for without him there would be no major conflict -- I think that the dramatic/tragic themes work out better in Oklahoma and WSS precisely because there are resolutions; although tragic ones. (In OK there is another "falling on the knife," but it is focused and dealt with differently). In Carousel, as one example of what I meant by "crowding," although Billy has just died and Julie needs to grieve for him, the focus is immediately shifted from his death to her, even as his body is still on the ground! I felt that Louise might have had an easier time in life if the community had been shown to "come to grips" with Billy and his death, so that the stigma might not descend on her (although I realize that this would have altered the plot). In WSS the resolution is illustrated by both Sharks and Jets appearing to repent Tony's killing.
Well,(speaking of "crowded!") these are just my opinions based on my memories of the plays -- anyone certainly is welcome to disagree with me. And, of course, real life doesn't often work out neatly, with plenty of time for resolutions, either!
In Carousel, as one example of what I meant by "crowding," although Billy has just died and Julie needs to grieve for him, the focus is immediately shifted from his death to her, even as his body is still on the ground!
I felt that Louise might have had an easier time in life if the community had been shown to "come to grips" with Billy and his death, so that the stigma might not descend on her (although I realize that this would have altered the plot).
And, of course, real life doesn't often work out neatly, with plenty of time for resolutions, either!
Oh, dear, as everyone has told me for years, I'm just not a romantic! And you are right, GG, about the New England towns in the 1870s: the sins of the father descended forever!
What I meant about the death scene (an aside: I wouldn't have married Mr. Snow for all the lobster in the Atlantic! But Carrie was portrayed to be, er, naive, anyway). Death scene: Julie's cousin (Nettie? Lettie?) pulled Julie to her feet thirty seconds after Billy shuffled off to Heaven's waiting room, told her that life will go on, and that when she walks through a storm to keep her head up high (I'm referring to the film version). I think that the comfort and security that her cousin offered Julie were wonderful and appropriate, but that any major inspirational speeches could have waited awhile: in real life the girl would have been in shock.
As you pointed out, however -- a musical is NOT real life. Thanks, everyone, for putting up with my cynical self!
My darling, you're not at all cynical, but I was waiting for you, almost goading you into commenting on Mrs. Mullin (edit, as pointed out with great aplomb further down by rorysa) arriving on scene and with her almost "I knew you'd come to this and tried to stop it" attitude. As the commentator says, it's very generous of Julie to allow Mrs. Mullin time with Billy (for she was in love with him, without a doubt.) But there are those who are offended by it and I thought that's what you meant by the scene being "overcrowded," a la the late Princess Di commenting on the role of Camilla in her marriage to the Prince of Wales.
You know, Carolyn, my tone toward you in this thread does seem a bit harsh. Do forgive! I meant nothing of the kind and I hope you know that.
"WE ARE THE PRESIDENT!" First Lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton
You don't seem harsh, to me, GG! You are always considerate.
Re Mrs. Mullins: she was to some degree a bete noir in the marriage, but, although Billy seemed to like her attention and money, he wasn't in love with her, and so to me she wasn't a threat to him and Julie -- but definitely a nuisance.
Will you two think I'm too harsh if I tell you her name is Mrs. Mullin? I feel like I'm crashing in on an internet romance.
shareThanks for the correction, rorysa. And no, it isn't a romance!
shareWhen I feel I am being pedantic, I apologize for it. Pedantry coupled with rudeness is most unbecoming and doesn't suit you all, rory, but then, you can be as disagreeable and churlish as you are informative and enlightening. With you, one is forced to take your many warts along with whatever gifts you bring to the party, or perhaps, more appropriately in this thread, to the fair or clambake.
"WE ARE THE PRESIDENT!" First Lady, Hillary Rodham Clinton
You may as well say the same things about "Oliver!", which has a mostly very cheerful first half and then turns almost completely dramatic in the second. And even the death of Billy is not horrific, while the death of Nancy in "Oliver!" certainly is.
shareYes. West Side Story, as well. That was a true musical tragedy.
aguineapigstale.blogspot.com/2010/07/found-in-bookstore.html
From the Cathecism:
2281 Suicide contradicts the natural inclination of the human being to preserve and perpetuate his life. It is gravely contrary to the just love of self. It likewise offends love of neighbor because it unjustly breaks the ties of solidarity with family, nation, and other human societies to which we continue to have obligations. Suicide is contrary to love for the living God.
No Heaven and against Catholic teachings. . . to date.
Celestial Waiting Room may be Limbo. Close enough to call it Heaven. (Without splitting hairs.)
gaelicguy -- I was raised a Catholic in the 80s and I have a Catholic parent and I can tell you 100% for sure that the Catholic Church still does say that anyone who commits suicide will go to H-E-double hockeysticks. Big no no from the Legion of Decency's perspective.
Did I not love him, Cooch? MY OWN FLESH I DIDN'T LOVE BETTER!!! But he had to say 'Nooooooooo'
It was more than ten years ago and the script followed the original stage version ("Billy, seeing his whole life as a failure, kills himself, crying, 'Julie!'"). The album notes also refer to the show as "a tale of dysfunctional romance, suicide and too-little, too-late redemption."
The production did not prettify Billy's violent nature. By the end of the second scene, Billy had struck Julie and Carrie and Mrs. Mullin. In Act II, when Louise refuses to accept the star from Billy, instead of slapping her hand, Billy hauls off and wallops Louise right across the face.
Having said all that, it would be hard to convey to you that Michael Hayden's Billy was by far the most sympathetic Billy I had ever seen, as well as the most violent. (And his singing was inconsistent, which only added to his bad-boy appeal.) His immediate, baffled remorse after each act of violence was painfully apparent, and his pained reaction to hearing Julie excuse his violence to Louise was heartbreaking and redeemed that very difficult moment.
"I told him about the maracas and he was appalled."
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Does anyone remember a TV version of CAROUSEL with Robert Goulet, Charles Ruggles, Patricia Neway and Pernell Roberts? I saw it when I was 10 or 11 and if memory serves, it followed the stage version a little more closely than the film. In fact, I was stunned because the main character hit his wife, his daughter and his "mistress" (Mrs. Mullin)! And it was odd seeing "Adam" from BONANZA singing and playing a bad guy. Has this ever been on home video?
shareHere's the IMDB page: http://imdb.com/title/tt0190291/.
I don't think it has even been on home video/DVD, but I believe there was an LP that you could get at the time only by writing to the sponsor of the show, which was possibly Johnson Wax or Armstrong? I've seen them turn up very rarely on e-Bay. There was also a Brigadoon, a Kismet and a Kiss Me, Kate.
"You stink of horse."
My memory is that the Goulet TV version actually used the screenplay, rather than the stage play, as its source.
shareYou mean it began in heaven and was told as a flashback?
All I remember was Goulet's "Soliloquy," his death scene and how pleased I was that the score wasn't abridged (as I recall).
"You stink of horse."
Well, I haven't seen it since 1967, but yes, I believe it started in heaven and was told as a flashback. I even recall Goulet flinging a star to start the credits. If my memory is playing tricks on me, someone let me know.
shareI know this is off-topic, but...DryToast, just wanted to say how much I enjoyed your post about Michael Hayden's performance in the 1993(London)/1994(Broadway) revival. I was lucky enough to see his Billy at the Lincoln Center in '94 and it is still one of finest performances I have seen. It was raw, emotional and gut-wrenching. In addition to the scene you mentioned, I loved the way he played Billy's reaction to the news of Julie's pregnancy: he looked at her fiercely for a moment and walked towards her, then embraced and kissed her passionately. What was so well-done about it was that, for a terrifying moment before the embrace, I was really afraid that he was going to hit Julie. IIRC, she even took an apprehensive step back from him as he approached her. Brief, wordless moments like that in Hayden's performance really added depth and captured the essence of Billy's character.
Anyway, thanks for rekindling some of my memories of the revival. If only there were a videorecording available of that version--I would love to see it again.
I've always had a hard time with idea of Billy killing himself, leaving Julie pregnant and alone...I hate to think that he is that cruel.
sharecan anyone tell me if the stage version of carousel that you are referring to,the one in England over 10 years ago,is the one that had John Altman in it ( Nick Cotton from " Eastenders " ? ).I read that he played Jigger in the production he was in,which is a role i can imagine him in,since its very similar to his role as Nick Cotton.I wish i had seen him in it.I've seen him on stage in a couple of shows in the past,and met him afterwards.
As to which ending i prefer with Billy's death,i think they are both suitable,i can see the reasons for both,but actually,i prefer the accidental death.I think Billy accidently falling on the knife does make it more tragic,but the,i can see why Billy would commit suicide,since he was about to get arrested,and he was weak in a way,since he hit Julie.And he was depressed from losing his job.He probably felt life wasnt going to get any better so decided to kill himself.However,one thing i dont like about that death is that he is being selfish leaving julie and the baby,although,sadly,as other characters point out,in the stage version,Julie will have been better off without Billy aswell.It is still sad since you can see they were in love too.There are mixed views in this.
Billy himself excused his own suicide by saying, "I just couldn't see anything ahead..."
If he was desperate enough to resort to robbery and murder, he was desperate enough to kill himself. It also fit in with his character in another way...it was defiant in a sort of screwed-up way. He would never submit to authority--he wouldn't let the cops take him alive.
But a grand, defiant last gesture suddenly doesn't seem like such a blaze of glory when you see the effect it's left on your pregnant widow and the daughter she'll give birth to, who'll have your reputation to live down.
We just did this show (I was Mrs. Mullin), and our script had Billy commit suicide, but at the last minute we changed it to tripping over a crate and accidentally stabbing himself because we thought it would make the audience sympathize more with Billy for the remainder of show.
I personally like it better as an accident. I do realize he committed suicide in the stage version because he was ashamed and did not want to see Julie cry, but Billy isn't an entirely likable character in the first place, and making him kill himself might make the audience lose respect for him altogether.
"We pretty much make our living on crazy."
I did not like the 94 stage version. I did not think it was true to the original. I also did not think the interracial casting was appropriate because of the period. In the 1880s mr snow would nor be married to an african american, and to simple ignore the fact that she was a black actress is ridiculous. The actress who played Julie ( this was the NY production) was so nondescript she blended into the background. I was totally disappointed with the show.
shareI disagree Freerun. I thought the Lincoln Center production was gorgeous and dark. They didn't shy away from the dark elements of the musical, in fact they embraced them and confronted them, rescuing the musical from being totally dated.
As for the interracial casting, it's called colorblind casting and has been part of the New York stage for at least a couple decades now. Get over it. If you can suspend your disbelief to accept people breaking out in song, you should be able to look past the color of their skin.
As for the suicide vs. accidental death question, the accident version is a total cop=out. The whole point of his coming back to earth to repent is based on his suicide. If he died accidentally, he's got nothing to repent.
Different strokes. I'm glad you enjoyed it.
shareI disagree with your second and third paragraphs, but I'll address only the latter, the subject of this thread.
Just because Billy doesn't commit suicide does not mean there is no reason to send him back to Earth. In this story, he is to try to help his daughter and set things right with Julie. The Starkeeper blames him for leaving Julie "with nothin' to support her." He has "left" her not because he committed suicide, but because of the decisions he made, including not working and his ill-advised participation with the unsavory Jigger in the robbery of a man who did not even possess the bounty they sought. At the very least, he also owes Julie the knowledge of his love for her. The Starkeeper additionally figures that Billy's similarities to Louise make him the best candidate to get through to her.
Beside all that, "everybody's got a right to go back for one day if they wanna," so repenting does not seem to be a requirement. The Starkeeper, at the beginning, after reading of Billy's waiver of the right, tries to figure out "what good it would do" if he did send him back. The "good" he finally settles on is to try to achieve some peace of mind...for all three members of this star-crossed family.
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When I met Shirley Jones, I had the audacity to open by saying "Why was Carousel (the film) such an abomination?"
Instead of slapping me she said "Here's why..."
She not only agreed with me, but explained to me that unlike all the OTHER Rogers and Hammerstein musicals, this one was the only one they were not directly involved with! R&H were appalled by the "falling on the knife" as the whole point of the story is that Billy commits suicide, that's the reason he's in purgatory in the first place! They were offended by nearly 30% of their songs being removed, the profanity being removed and by Sinatra casually walking out at the last minute, having catered to his demands for months.
All this because the producers wanted the "Good Housekeeping Family seal" no joke!
1) Shirley Jones loves this film and didn't want to be rude to you.
2) True, R & H were not as involved in this film, which accounts for their distaste (they WERE involved in "South Pacific" with those color filters, so don't blame the producers!), and they understandably did not like changes in their work, but...
3) the producers and Fox can't be blamed for the fact the movie industry was still operating under the Hays Code.
4) The removed songs were not exactly Rodgers and Hammerstein's Greatest Hits, and if they made way for the sensational "June" dance, it was worth it.
5) Their anger at Sinatra was obviously fleeting, as he recorded their songs after his walk-out.
6) The changes were all for the best, and the film turned out great.
7 Otto Preminger got away with fighting the Hays Code and had a stronger producer/director handled this film, it would have been much better.
8 You obviously have horrible taste in films.