MovieChat Forums > Carousel (1956) Discussion > Missing Songs

Missing Songs

posted 19 years ago by MikeAnsaraFan
59 replies | jump to latest

Im sure when I first saw Carousel in 1956 it included the 3 or so songs which are missing in all later versions.

I've read that they were cut from the final print, but I reckon 100% they were there in 1956.

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

Interesting. Although this is one of my all-time favorites and over the years I've read everything about it I could find, I've never heard that any final print, even a sneak preview print, contained any material not seen thereafter. I know they shot "Blow High, Blow Low," because there are some surviving stills, but I've never heard they filmed any other songs not seen in the film today, much less put them in the final print.

[–] DryToast 19 years ago

I recently rented a documentary about Rodgers & Hammerstein's movies from Netflix, and it contained part or all of the "Blow High, Blow Low" footage.

"Everett Sloane - he was good - pills. Margaret Sullivan, pills. Lupe Velez, a lot of pills."

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

No kidding! I had no idea there was surviving film of "Blow High, Blow Low." What is the name of the documentary and where else is it available? Does anyone else know of scenes that were cut from the final print? Please cite the source for your information.

[–] DryToast 19 years ago

http://imdb.com/title/tt0138061/combined

"Everett Sloane - he was good - pills. Margaret Sullivan, pills. Lupe Velez, a lot of pills."

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

I've seen that. Good movie. But my memory is that it included only stills from "Blow High, Blow Low."

[–] DryToast 19 years ago

Maybe my memory is mistaken. Sorry.

"Everett Sloane - he was good - pills. Margaret Sullivan, pills. Lupe Velez, a lot of pills."

[–] rsgre 19 years ago

The missing songs were "You're a queer one, July Jordan", "Blow high, blow low", and "The highest Judge of all". The movie is too long even with these songs cut, so something happened in the production. Maybe the prequel in Heaven was not a good idea (wasn't in the play at all), and the scene to scene editing could have been better. By the time Billy falls on his knife, the story seems to have come to a dead stop with him. Boring...and I think this movie actually lost money from what I heard.

Regards,

Steve

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

Since this is one of my all-time favorite films, I couldn't disagree more with Steve. This is a brilliant adaptation of the stage play (I've seen it performed on stage in an acclaimed production by Houston Grand Opera, and I'll take the film version any day of the week). The songs are wonderfully performed by gifted singers and are beautifully orchestrated, all under the guidance of the legendary Alfred Newman and Ken Darby. Henry King's direction provides just the right atmosphere. The screenplay is sharp and moving, the flashback technique imbuing the film prior to Billy's death with a sense of foreboding and sadness. "June is Bustin' Out All Over" and "Louise's Ballet" are two of the greatest dance numbers ever captured on film. The Cinemascope 55 photography is grand. Everyone is entitled to his opinion, but how anyone can think that a song score featuring such classics as "If I Loved You," "You'll Never Walk Alone," "Soliloquy," "What's the Use of Wondrin'," "June is Bustin" Out All Over," "This Was a Real Nice Clambake," and "The Carousel Waltz" is damaged by the omission of "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan," "Blow High, Blow Low," and "Highest Judge of All" is beyond my comprehension. I first saw this film more than 40 years ago, and when I see a finer film musical, I'll let you know.

[–] rsgre 19 years ago

Well...if you like it, that's fine me. But If you think that the movie was better than any stage production you ever saw, it can't be a very good play (I've never seen the play). How can "less", be "more"? (By the way, I think this movie "bombed", from what I heard).
Still...it's okay in it's own corny, sentimental way...

Regards,

Steve

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

The play was successful in its initial run and when it has been revived, though four other R & H musicals had longer runs on Broadway. The film was not a box office success, though "bombed" is probably too strong a word. So what? Both the play and film were ahead of their times. This was an offbeat and downbeat musical for audiences of the '40s and '50s. It was very daring stuff--who ever heard of using a TRAGEDY as the source material for a musical?Gershwin and others had tried to tackle "Liliom," but had given up. I think R & H realized they were breaking new ground with their "musical play" and didn't expect another "Oklahoma!" But regardless of how much audiences were attracted to the story, the one thing no one ever quarreled about was the greatness of its score.

Over the years, "Carousel" has grown in popularity and remained a smash with the critics; it has probably held up better than any of the other R & H musicals. Go to your local bookstore and look this film up in almost any movie compilation book, and see how high it is rated. You may or may not also recall that Time Magazine named "Carousel" the greatest musical of the 20th century. I believe very few people would call "Carousel" corny. So denigrate it if you like--I'll be there to defend it.

[–] rsgre 19 years ago

I have been talking solely about the movie. I have never seen the play. I know that the play is held in high esteem by many critics, but even some of them acknowledge the somewhat overly sentimental (and silly) story line. My point is that the movie doesn't live up to standards of the play. From the standpoint of time I would say that it was cast completely wrong. Jones & McCrea are too nicy, nice middle class. The story is about two "bottom of the barrel losers" who take a chance on love, and finally end tragically. I don't know who I would have picked offhand, but they are both too nice to be believable. It's a shame that all the R & H movies were overproduced, that's not what the theater is about, but that's Hollywood's natural style (the bigger, the better...or so they think). Might have more to say...

Regards,

Steve

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

Sorry, but I don't have a clue what you are talking about. What do you mean "Carousel" and the other R & H film musicals were "overproduced"? That they were big budget shows with high production values? That you can see every penny up on the screen? Could it be that one of the reasons these films are still loved by audiences today has something to do with their opulent productions that used some of the best talent both in front of and behind the cameras that Hollywood and New York had to offer?

Regarding "Carousel," you think Julie is supposed to be a loser who isn't nice? Where in the world did you come up with that one? Billy is the one who is not a nice guy, and that's just how Gordon MacRae played him. When you admit you don't know who should have been cast instead, that about says it all.

[–] rsgre 19 years ago

Let's drop the subject. These are the only movies made of their plays, so for better or worse, we are stuck with them. If they work for you, fine. Not a big deal...
Regards,

Steve

[–] rsgre 19 years ago

I just went to the "State Fair"(1945) site and posted this message:

This was, in my opinion, the best Rogers & Hammerstein filmed musical. If only the other, later films had followed this pattern. This one has a simplicity and an honesty that would never be duplicated. A down-to-earth story and characters that are believable, and some of their best songs. The 50's hype and wide screen glory would ruin the later films, but this one is a gem for all time.
Sometimes, the best things come in small packages...!!

Regards,

Steve

(This is exactly what I was getting at all along...)

[–] twigs17 19 years ago

Personaly I think all of you are missing the point of this great movie. Let's just stop and think about this plot for a moment; if any of us were to die tomorrow, what would we like to come back and say to those that we love?? If you've never been in that position then how could you ever judge this musical?

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

One of the great aspects of "Carousel" is that its story works on more than one level. For example, if you remove all the fantasy elements and just look at the last 15 minutes of the show from Julie's perspective, "Carousel" reminds us that we can gain strength from the memories we have of our departed loved ones and friends and our feelings toward them. And from Louise's perspective, the message is that we shouldn't be held back because of our parents' failures.

[–] dmnemaine 15 years ago

Umm, hate to break it to you, but dead people don't come back, so no one has ever been in that "position".

[–] petrilloi 15 years ago

I concur with MikeAnsaraFan (though memory is unreliable) and two songs (You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan and Blow High, Blow Low)were always on the Soundtrack album... Yet I too, seem to recall seeing those two numbers in the original film. HR

[–] captgeoslady 19 years ago

I have a VHS copy of Carousel...and it includes the songs Blow High, Blow Low and You're a Queer One....I have never heard The Highest Judge of All. I also have a soundtrack album of the movie and both songs are included.

[–] justoldbill 19 years ago

I doubt if "The Highest Judge Of All" was ever considered for the film. It would be difficult for Billy to express his defiance toward the afterlife when the film has ALREADY started in the afterlife. (A mistake, in my opinion.)
You might want to check that VHS again. You may be confusing "You're A Queer One, Julie Jordan" with "Mister Snow", and if "Blow High, Blow Low" is there, I'd like to see it.

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

Captgeoslady, I fear you are hallucinating. Is it drugs?

[–] containergardener 19 years ago

How in the world did you get hold of a copy with all the songs intact? I'm jealous! I have seen this movie in its complete version at the movies (and one time only on tv years and years ago). My mom had the soundtrack when I was young so I am familiar with all the songs.
Don't recall one called "The Highest Judge of All".
Sue

[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

I didn't know "The Highest Judge of All" was even filmed...but you're right about one thing, even with these numbers gone, the film is awfully long, though I have to admit I miss "Blow High Blow Low". In my musical theater class in college, I was once given the assignment to choreograph that number and I was to use all the guys in the class, so I got to know and like that song.

[–] movieghoul 12 years ago

"You're a queer one" and "Blow High" are both on the soundtrack so must have been filmed and cut.

IMO, the worst musical cut was the the intro to "When the CHildren Are Asleep" which tells us a lot about the SNow/Carrie relationship we don't get anywhere else. THis is also on the soundtrack. Even more ridiculous, when Snow and his kids march on during Louise's Ballet, the music played is from that intro, but how is the audience to know that and make the connection?

[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

"Blow High Blow Low" is on the soundtrack album, but I have never seen it in any print of the film. Some prints are also missing "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan".

[–] rorysa 18 years ago

I'll stand by the statement I made a year ago: whether or not "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan" was ever shot, it was never included in the final release print.

[–] Isaac5855 18 years ago

It may not be in most prints, but it was on the soundtrack album that I had...so was "Blow High Blow Low".

[–] rorysa 18 years ago

The fact that it was pre-recorded (and included on the soundtrack album) does not mean it was ever included on the final print (IF it was even filmed, which I don't know one way or the other).

[–] Isaac5855 17 years ago

I never said it was in the movie or that it was even filmed...all I said was that it was on the first soundtrack album I ever bought for the movie.

[–] rorysa 17 years ago

Sorry, I thought when you said "most prints" you meant that it had been filmed and included on SOME prints.

[–] containergardener 19 years ago

You are correct, my mother had the soundtrack and played it often when I was young. This was the very first film my mom took me to see, and all the songs were performed. Missing are: "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan", a "sailing song" (don't remember the actual title) and before Carrie and Mr. Snow sing "When the Children Are Asleep"
Mr Snow leads into it with a song about fishing boats that he plans to buy (don't remember the title of this one either). I would love to know if anyone has any info as to whether this movie will ever be released in its original entire form.
Sue

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

To my knowledge:

1) The version we have seen all these years was the one and only final release print. It has not been edited since its original release.
2) "Blow High, Blow Low" was pre-recorded and filmed on location at Boothbay Harbor, but was never included in the final release print. This is hardly the only time a musical number was filmed but not used--it has happened many times.
3) "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan" was pre-recorded, I don't know whether it was shot, but it was never included in the final release print.
4) The introduction to "When the Children are Asleep" was pre-recorded, but never filmed as far as I know.
5) "The Highest Judge of All" was not pre-recorded and was never intended to be used in the film.
6) Those who claim to have seen any of these numbers performed on film are not talking about the Twentieth Century-Fox version released in 1956 and directed by Henry King. As for what they ARE talking about, I can't help with.

[–] justoldbill 19 years ago

Yes, the Capitol soundtrack has the opening part of "When The Children Are Asleep" that does not appear in the film. Like the OKLAHOMA and THE KING AND I Capitol soundtracks, extra material was recorded for the home LP market, causing never-ending confusion. Robert Rounsville, the film's Mr. Snow, was a popular classical artist in the 50's, so it's not surprising they would do as much with him as possible. I only thank God they didn't record "Geraniums In The Winder". Barbara Ruick was hardly unknown at the time, either. Hence, the addition of "You're A Queer One, Julie Jordan" to the record. Rodgers and Hammerstein (and Capitol) wanted the albums to stand on their own for the record-buying public, especially given the recent explosion of home high fidelity. The original cast albums on Decca, after all, were limited in their sonics. Even with the additional numbers and special overtures on these albums, their average playing time is only about forty-five minutes. If you're going to pay $4.95, it has to be worth it!

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

Yep, I first got the "Carousel" LP in about '67 or '68, and I'm pretty sure at that time it cost about $4.95 or $5.95.

[–] steph36uk 19 years ago

Thanks for the info. I think these songs were probably in all in the film before it was cut for the final release print like many films of this time alot had Roadshow engagements SOUTH PACIFIC certainly did and much was cut out of that films orginal 181mins running time to bring it down to 151mins running time in its General theatrical release.
In fact here in England the film of South Pacific at any rate was even shown in a diffrent sequence to that in the US it followed its Broadway sequencing, so I'll bet there is or was a directors cut of the film of Carousel around.
The only sequence that wasn't filmed that is on soundtrack album is the first part of 'WHEN THE CHILDREN ARE SLEEP'.

[–] justoldbill 19 years ago

I think the only "unused" song that was actually filmed for CAROUSEL was "Blow High, Blow Low". The scenes that the other two songs would be in seem to run pretty smoothly without any apparent cuts or edits.

[–] rorysa 19 years ago

I agree with your first sentence, bill, but I've always wondered about that dissolve between "This time I'll pay" and the "Mister Snow" lead-in.

[–] steph36uk 18 years ago

rorysa there are photos of Shirely Jones & Barbara Ruick singing 'Your a Queer One Julie Jordan' that I do know for sure as I've seen them

[–] rorysa 18 years ago

Then you've seen something I haven't, and I thought I had seen everything connected with "Carousel." Anyone who has seen such photos: please report the source.

[–] justoldbill 18 years ago

I think the dissolve before "Mister Snow" can simply be attributed to the change between the location shot and the soundstage. Since the two numbers originally are basically two halves of the same scene with the same two people, any photographs of the same scene could be confused for either song. I'll just bet any photo "reconstruction" on the new DVD will be the album cut of "Queer One" with stills of "Mr. Snow". What's the harm?

The main clue to my belief that "Queer One" was never filmed is the part in the song where Carrie sings, "When we work in the mill weavin' at the loom, ya gaze absent-minded at the roof..." etc. Later, in "If I Loved You", Julie tells Billy that if she loved him, "When I'd work in the mill weavin' at the loom, I'd gaze absent-minded at the roof..." etc. That part of Julie's song is not in the film, and the continuous shot says it was never there. If Carrie's observation isn't in the film, Julie's echo of it couldn't be there either. And what a shame! The first time I heard the whole scene was in performance (the Lincoln Center production), and when Julie sang what Carrie had sung, it just wiped me away. As it was supposed to. Musical theatre writing at it's best.

However, in film terms, what we want to get to is Billy and Julie, and I suppose one song's delay is enough. We'll find out about Julie's character without two minutes of Carrie singing about it, and we'll need to know something of Carrie and her intended since he shows up later without much additional introduction.

[–] rorysa 18 years ago

Good points all, Bill. As I've said, I've never heard or seen any evidence that "Queer One" was ever filmed. One interesting note, however, is that it IS used in the underscoring (for the bench scene before "If I Loved You"), and of course underscoring is written and recorded AFTER completion of principal photography. It isn't usual for underscoring to include a song not heard in the film, but I am well aware that there are a number of exceptions to this "rule."

[–] justoldbill 18 years ago

Of course there are. The first time we see Ado Annie and Ali Hakim, we get "It's A Scandal, It's A Outrage". Elsa comes back to the ball to "How Can Love Survive". Cable talks Emile into going with him to "Now Is The Time". "Western People Funny" underscores preparations for the king's state dinner. "The Pineapple Song" comes from Sally's grammophone. "In Praise Of Women" and "Liaisons" underscore NIGHT MUSIC. "Another Openin', Another Show" is the dance music for "Why Can't You Behave?", the 1965 CINDERELLA uses "Boys And Girls Like You And Me" as ball music.... Oh, the list goes on and on.

My point being it's VERY usual to cull a film's underscoring from material not actually sung in the film. If any arranger limited the underscoring to the songs we're hearing ANYWAY, what's the point, unless you're Richard Wagner? Spice it up, keep it new, keep it fresh, keep it interesting.

[–] laurence01 17 years ago

There is another completly unused song. On stage, at the start of the "june is busting" scene is a song called "give it to em good carrie". This song is musicaly the same as the urchin section of the ballet.

[–] laurence01 17 years ago

The one i wonder about is the begining of "when the children are asleep". There is a possible cut into it. The camera changes from billy, and julies boat to Mr snow, and carries. At the same time the orchestra cuts to the bridge inbetween the begining section, and the chorus. so it is likely that the whole song was filmed and the edited.

[–] rorysa 17 years ago

No, I don't think so. With no cut in between, Mr. Snow and Carrie are talking and then Mr. Snow begins singing the song. By the way, Billy and Julie are on the same boat as Mr. Snow and Carrie.

[–] laurence01 17 years ago

The music which is playing under Mr Snow's dialogue is on the soundtrack album inbetween the sections of the song, not at the begining. The last line of that section is carries "and so would my figure", and that is where the music that Mr Snow talks over starts. In the film that music starts exactly where the camera changes from Julie and Billy, to Carrie and Mr Snow. Therefore it is completly possible that the whole song was filmed (with the dialogue in the middle, not at the begining).

[–] rorysa 17 years ago

Okay, now I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, what was filmed or not filmed is among the many questions left unanswered by the mediocre anniversary DVD.

[–] johnhughespiano 17 years ago

I've been reading all these postings with great interest. I also have always wondered why those songs were on the LP and not in the film. Having recently bought a "complete" CD of "Gigi", I read in the liner notes that songs are generally recorded months before the cameras even begin to roll. "Carousel" is a great story, but not the most upbeat and in that respect some would think it long. Having seen and performed in the stage version, I feel "The Highest Judge of All" in expendable and in 1956, religious references were carefully censored. Some of the best "plot advancing" writing is contained in "You're a Queer One" and the opening to "When the Children Are Asleep". It's a shame that it was decided to delete them.
On the subject of the "dissolves" form scene to scene, I have noticed something interesting in another Rodgers and Hammerstein film, "The King and I". There are three deleted (yest recorded) songs in that film: "My Lord and Master", "I Have Dreamed" (one of the prettiest songs the team ever wrote), and "Shall I Tell You What I Think Of You?" These were all cut for timing reasons presumably. What I noticed, seeing the film on the big screen, that there are fade-outs with quite noticeable white splice lines which occur at the places in the narrative where those sings would have been placed. Someone said in the very first release, that the songs were included. These splices may be on the negative and hence transferred to the shorter prints.
Or....I could be all wet!!!!

[–] waynealanblood 9 years ago

I work for the Rodgers and Hammerstein offices and I recently had to compile a photocopy of the film’s Piano-Conductor Score for a client.

The only two things that I have found that were intended to be used but dropped are:

1) Billy’s section of the Bench Scene (If I Loved You) that starts “kinda scrawny and pale, pickin’ at my food…” That section was replaced with shortened underscoring.

2) Blow High, Blow Low. An abridged version of the stage number (orchestrated by Nelson Riddle!)

No production material exists for any other cut songs. To me, that indicates they never planned on using that material.

Dude, it’s Beacon Hills.

[–] movieghoul 9 years ago

Since the opening of When the Children Are Asleep is on the soundtrack album, it must have been intended at some point.

It's a pretty egregious cut since audiences unfamiliar with it can't get the reference to the part that's heard during the ballet.

[–] MikeAnsaraFan 16 years ago

I do believe that most of the 'missing' songs were cut for the final release.

If you listen carefully you can here the melody of 'You're A Queer One Julie Jordan', in the part just before Carrie sings 'Mr. Snow', as if it had just been sung.

Also I think 'Blow High, Blow Low' was just before 'June Is Bustin' Out All Over'. Didnt Cameron Mitchell sing it?

[–] DryToast 16 years ago

<<Also I think 'Blow High, Blow Low' was just before 'June Is Bustin' Out All Over'. Didnt Cameron Mitchell sing it?>>

Yes, Cameron Mitchell. I think the number falls somewhere between "June" and "Soliloquy." There are still photos of the number, so we know it was indeed filmed.

"It is I! It is me! It is Carla Göteborg!"

[–] bradford-1 15 years ago

I recall seeing a TV version of CAROUSEL when I was a child, either in 1966 or '67. It starred Robert Goulet and Pernell Roberts (Jigger) and a fairly unknown actress/singer as Julie. Is it possible some people have VHS copies of this production and have confused it with the movie? I have no memory of which numbers were or were not used in the TV show, but maybe the ones missing from the film were. I assume the TV version has never been on "official" home video.

[–] rorysa 15 years ago

Have you by any chance tried looking up that version on IMDB?

[–] dedalus-16 15 years ago

The Angel recording of 2001 is an expanded restored version of the original 1956 film soundtrack digitally remastered. "Blow High, Blow Low" and "You're a Queer One, Julie Jordan" are there.
Most movie musicals have periods of ennui but this is one of the better ones. While tedious in parts the dance sequences are exciting and make great sense furthering the plot, Mc Rae is a star as the drifty non-committed anti-hero and his "Soliloqy" is one of the best of any rendering. Shirley Jones does her thing in that sweet way that would capture any man's heart. The use of the ocean background with it's reflections of emotions is dramatic.
Audiences gasp when Shirley says that a blow is like a kiss - and with good reason. "What's the Use of Wond'rin" is a feminist nightmare. Some later productions condemned the violence.

[–] rorysa 15 years ago

This production--if you pay attention--condemns the violence too.

I have seen this film with audiences that did not gasp at Julie's touching love-conquers-all romantric metaphor, probably because they interpreted the piece correctly and were not addled by current-day political correctness.

[–] dedalus-16 15 years ago

The violence towards Julie is condemned here mainly by supporting characters,and I believe some of the audience gasps must come from incredulity at how Julie and Louise romanticize Billy's actions - not uncommon in the field where the victim of the violence will forgive and excuse the perpetrator and quickly fall into "love" again - a circular process.

[–] rorysa 15 years ago

As I have said before:

The characters who criticize and deride Billy's violent behavior include (I hope I'm not leaving anyone out): Carrie, Cousin Nettie, the Starkeeper, the Heavenly Friend, Mrs. Mullin, and Enoch Jr. And when confronted with the accusation, Billy twice makes a lame attempt to defend himself and the third time makes no response at all.

[–] bradford-1 10 years ago

Six (!) years later, I have secured a copy of the TV version of CAROUSEL on DVD. Hope to watch it in the next two-three days. Maybe I can clear up some of the confusion from years past (or add to it!)

May I bone your kipper, Mademoiselle?