MovieChat Forums > The Dam Busters (1955) Discussion > Huge security breach

Huge security breach

posted 16 years ago by dspear7777
23 replies | jump to latest

In the final dinner, just before the crew go on the mission, a waitress keeps asking "Are you flying tonight, sir?". Gibson replies "That's the general idea". I would imagine that a base diner is exactly the kind of place where Germans might put a low-level spy. The waitress knows that a top-secret mission is coming from the general talk. Now, she can tell the enemy to look for planes taking off from that base tonight. Talk about "loose lips sink ships".

I vividly remember this movie from when I was 12, and despite the above, still consider it the best war movie.

[–] simon-1019 16 years ago

The reason she asks is because crew who were about to go on a mission got better food than those who weren't. Any spy could have worked this out just by looking at their plates.... and anyway, you couldn't keep the launch of a squadron of Lancasters secret from anyone within 2 miles of the base.

[–] TopGunSGA 16 years ago

Yeah, all you have to do is look at the scene where the non-flying Officer requests bacon and eggs and gets sent to the toast table because he isn't flying

-- COOOBRAAAA! --

[–] iain_jones 16 years ago

That and the fact that the woman would have had to come through some fairly stringent security to get onto the base, and back in the day people wouldn't sell out their country because they got paid very little.

[–] TorontoJediMaster 16 years ago

At that point, the aircraft were being bombed up, fueled and loaded with ammunition for the guns. Any spy would have noted that rather than conversations in the Officer's Mess.

As well, he didn't say what the target was or anything specific like that. He just said they were flying on business that night. In the book, it describes that most people on the base got an idea that 617 was flying on an operation.

Most likely, the base was sealed at that point as well. So, any spy wouldn't have been able to get any message out.

[–] david_colbourne 16 years ago

You're quite correct to say that the base would be sealed. No-one would be allowed off the base without the proper authorisation. Additionally, no-one would be able to use the telephones to make an outside call, as all telephone lines went through the base switchboard. I suppose there were always carrier pigeons for the well-prepared spy, though.

[–] radioriot 16 years ago

You also must remember that at this point in the war, the British had turned every German spy in England. They gave they a choice: Death by firing squad or become a British double agent and relay incorrect information to the Germans. Their was no way to get a radio signal out of England without the British knowing about it.

Plus there is no such thing as secrecy on the base. Dozens of people have to know when planes are going up. That is why there is so much security on those bases. You can bet that even regular maids and cooks and waitresses were watched by security in their off hours. My guess would be that their work shifts were designed around flight plans. No one in or out, right before or after take-offs.

[–] TorontoJediMaster 15 years ago

I don't think work shifts for base service personnel could be designed around flight plans. Don't forget that they had the entire bases' needs to handle, not just the flight crews (administration, medical people, etc.). As well, Scampton had more than one squadron situated there. So, they couldn't shut down base services based on what one squadron did.

Most people working on the base knew that they had to keep their mouths shut about goings on at a bomber base. 617 Squadron had been causing rumours for weeks, since they'd been doing nothing but training, with special night-training gear. As many of the crews were highly-experienced, this caused even more rumblings. But, mail was censored and phones were monitored -as far back as late March. So, there was little chance of slips in security on that end.

There's a humorous story, related in the book, that security was so tight, that after word of the raids' success reached England, Air Chief Marshall Harris attempted to call Washington DC to tell the head of the RAF, Charles Portal, who was there on a conference with USAAF officers. Harris rang the base operator, identified himself as CiC of Bomber Command and asked for a line to Washington DC. The operator, who had been fielding calls for the last week, of a New Zealand member of 617 Squadron who felt homesick after a few drinks and had an urge to call home. The operator had perfected her way to handle the situation. She gently and politely said the lines to New Zealand were down, so he should call his batman (orderly) who would "give him a course to steer" to his bed. He would always thank her politely and do as she suggested. Now, the operator figured it was the same man, just trying a different tactic. Security was so good, she had no idea that Harris himself was on the line. She gently suggested that he'd been drinking again, so he should get his batman to steer him to bed. Supposedly there was an explosion in the Operations Room then. Some brave officers placated an angry Harris while an intelligence operator ran down to the switchboard room, where he told the surprised operator that the caller really was Harris and that she should -for the sake of everyone- try to get through to Washington ASAP.

[–] Corner_House_guest 15 years ago

To be pedantic, I think only one German agent, Josef Jakobs in 1940, was shot, the last execution in the Tower of London. The rest were hanged.

[–] marktayloruk (2590) 3 years ago

Every spy - how does anyone know?

[–] russellalb 15 years ago

In Guy Gibson's own account, he mentions Dingy Young asking him 'can I have your egg if you don't come back?' but Gibson told him to "sugar off".
In 1943, the food rationing entitlement in Britain was only 1 egg or 1 packet of dried eggs every 2 months. There's a great training film for GI's on how to behave in Britain. One scene shows a soldier who's been invited to the home of a british family and is given a plate of bacon and eggs, the family then offers him more. Next we are shown an empty plate and I smiling GI before the narrator says to him something like 'you've just eaten the whole family's ham and egg ration for 2 weeks'.

[–] SpiltPersonality 13 years ago

It would have been MUCH better for her to ask: "Are you having Bacon and Eggs or Toast?" That way the spy woudln't have had a clue what was going on :)

SpiltPersonality

[–] willieboyd2 12 years ago

The dog was a Nazi spy.

That is why he was killed.

[–] john-cook80 15 years ago

As a previous corresponder noted; all Bomber Command crews before a raid were given the traditional pre and post raid meal of eggs and bacon. Anyone present in the mess - not diner, would have realised this! All German spies had been "turned" (or executed) by the XX committee (Double Cross - get it?)

[–] beaubrummie 15 years ago

The RAF & US Air force were flying that many missions during the war that to keep secret a bombing raid was going to take place on enemy territory was impossible. The Germans new that they were going to be bombed.......the important thing for the allies was that the Germans didn't know what had been targeted. If the waitress had been a spy she could of informed her 'masters' a raid was planned but they would probably replied 'tell us something we don't know'.

[–] nyc104 15 years ago

Plus civilian catering staff Im sure wouldnt have had the luxury of,or being able to get anywhere near the flightline to inspect the aircraft,due to the presence of the Service police on duty.

[–] deeveed 15 years ago

Speaking of secrecy, I thought it was telling that when Wallis looked at his list of those "in the know" Gibson apparently wasn't on it. Why? Was that RAF protocol on secret missions?

[–] TorontoJediMaster 15 years ago

That actually happened.

When Gibson went to meet Wallis for the first time, he still hadn't been cleared to be told about the target.

Of course, it's possible that Harris or Cochrane had decided that he be let in on it, and word hadn't reached Wallis yet.

I'm not sure about the protocol about other "secret missions". The RAF actually didn't undertake that many secret missions in the war, at least not on the scale of the Dam's Raid.

As for the Mess staff, a previous poster is correct that they would not have been able to get anywhere close to the flight line to get a look at the aircraft or the weapon. They could probably see them from a distance, but not close enough to actually make out anything. About the only thing different that night from any other night was the fact that it was a full moon. That meant that no other squadrons would be flying. (The RAF didn't fly raids, as a rule, during full moon because it made the bombers too easy a target for night fighters.)

[–] megatosspot 14 years ago

The Germas geerally knew when a raid was on ad even had a vague idea of the size of the effort because they monitored the radio tests the crews carried out earlier on the day of a raid.

[–] jd-276 11 years ago

The biggest security breech was telling his doctor all about it, including the names of the dams, at the start of the film. I'm not sure that happened IRL.

[–] lubin-freddy 14 years ago

The fact that planes were flying every night wasn't ever in question. The only secret was the target.

We could have high times
if you'll abide

[–] profbrane 11 years ago

They had been training for some time so just saying they were flying wasn't giving anything away.

[–] garyedgecombe 10 years ago

There's many MANY funny stories about exactly how our R.A.F. chose their targets, my personal favourite is this one.
Every evening (weather permitting) Air Marshal Arthur (bomber) Harris opened a drawer in his Chippendale desk, and took out a fabulously ornate Fabergé box. He opened it and produced a solid gold, diamond encrusted dart fitted with Dodo feathered flights.
With minimal aim, he throws it at a large map of Nazi Germany...and noting where it hits, picks up one of his two dozen telephones.
"Good evening Gentlemen, the target for tonight is........."

[–] spookyrat1 9 years ago

... would have to be the lab trying to leave the base through the front gate without the proper authorization, wouldn't it?🐭