CAPT. QUEEG'S FUTURE - The Caine Mutiny (1954) Discussion

[–] 13 years ago

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[–] amcalabrese 13 years ago

In the book he issent to be the commander of a naval depot in the middle of the country

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[–] cross-9 13 years ago

Also in the book it's reported that Queeg was passed over for promotion, meaning he would be discharged, presumably honorably, from the Navy at the end of the war. In other words, his naval career was destroyed.

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[–] sidgirl 12 years ago

And funnily enough, there's a mention of the "desirability" of such a fate in the scene where DeVriess and Queeg meet. DeVriess says something about how he'd like to go somewhere with "no water" and they joke about how in the Navy the only such place would be "a supply depot in the middle of Utah." (Although I believe Queeg ends up in Iowa.)

It's also mentioned that he's still a Lt. Commander, and so was passed over for promotion. He'll probably still be in the Navy until he retires, but will never achieve a higher rank than Lt. Commander.

I'm new, please be kind!

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 12 years ago

You're correct in that he'd never rise higher than a Lieutenant-Commander. However, I don't think he'd be allowed to stay in the Navy until he decided to retire.

After the war ended, the Navy greatly reduced its ranks. Officers who weren't moving up any further could only stay in so long, as billets had to be available for officers coming up from below.

So, Queeg might have been able to remain in the Navy for a year or two after the war, but he'd eventually be forced to leave as he could only stay in the peacetime if he would be able to keep advancing. Knowing he'd never be promoted again meant his career in the Navy was effectively over once the war ended.

The remarks by DeVriess were ironic in that he likely knew that he'd in all likelihood be sent back out to sea fairly soon. (It was suggested he would be assigned to a ship then under construction and would take it to sea when it was commissioned.) Unlike Queeg, DeVriess had a proven record as a good captain who was an expert ship handler that could command the crew's respect.

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[–] sidgirl 12 years ago

Thanks! I actually had wondered about the bit where Ducely's letter tells Willie "that's it for him," or whatever the exact wording was. I knew that after the way they reduced the ranks but had assumed that those who were enlisted before the war, especially officers, would stay there.

I did know the bit with DeVriess and Queeg's discussion was irony. :-) I just thought it was a cute bit of foreshadowing, so mentioned it.

I'm new, please be kind!

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 9 years ago

The U.S. Navy had long ago adopted an "up or out" policy. In the latter-half of the 19th Century and into the start of the 20th Century, officers could remain in their ranks for years -sometimes decades- without being promoted. That meant that young up and comers were stymied in getting promotions as there were no available positions.

At the start of the 20th Century, as the Navy was beginning to undergo serious technological changes, they began to change the policies. President Teddy Roosevelt didn't want inept or complacent officers languishing in their posts while young and capable officers resigned in frustration from no potential to advance.

Roosevelt instituted the "up or out" policy, where officers (and enlisted men) had to keep advancing up the ranks or be compelled to retire in order to allow younger men a chance at their positions. It was a merit based system. Those who were capable were promoted and could stay in the service. Those who weren't didn't get promoted and had to retire. Generally, a more senior officer had two chances to get promoted. If he was passed over twice, it meant that he wasn't going to be promoted again and he'd have to retire within a certain time frame. Queeg had obviously been passed over for promotion to Commander, so it meant he'd have to retire from the Navy once the war was over as he had to future in the peacetime Navy.

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[–] sidgirl 9 years ago

That's really interesting, thanks! 😃

*****
People said love was blind, but what they meant was that love blinded them.

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 9 years ago

No problem.

A great book to read is Pacific Crucible by Ian W. Toll. It's about the naval war in the Pacific 1941-42. (He has a new one out, which I haven't gotten yet, which covers 1942-1944.) The prologue covers how Teddy Roosevelt -a former Assistant Secretary of the Navy- was the driving force behind a modernization of the U.S. Navy once he became President.

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[–] sidgirl 9 years ago

Oh, cool! I will definitely check that out.

Have you read DOWN TO THE SEA by Bruce Henderson? I haven't yet but it's next on my wishlist; it's the story of the storm Wouk based the CM storm on (Typhoon Cobra: I'm sure you know, but just in case), the three ships that were lost in it, and the errors that led to those losses. Looks fascinating.

*****
People said love was blind, but what they meant was that love blinded them.

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 9 years ago

I'll have to check that out. Another book I've seen, on the same subject, is Halsey's Typhoon. The 3rd Fleet, under Halsey, took more damage from the typhoon than they did from an engagement with the enemy.

The Ian Toll book is fantastic though; primarily because it's just well written. He's able to accurately paint a picture of what's happening and interject personal points of view as well. (He's reminiscent of Walter Lord, in that respect.)

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[–] dannieboy20906 9 years ago

It is WWII. As of the time I write everyone who makes it to O-4 (major in the army, marine corps, and air force, lieutenant command in the navy and coast guard) is made a 'regular officer' if currently a 'reserve officer.' Regular officers receive a permanent commission, meaning that they hold the commission for the rest of their lives unless it is revoked in a court martial. When we retire we do not retire from military service. We retire from active duty and are subject to recall at the pleasure of the Secretary of our respective service. The commission comes from the President of the United States, so only a properly constituted court martial (special or general, not a summary) can take it away.

Lt. Cmdr. Queeg will remain a lieutenant commander until he retires from active duty after 20 years of satisfactory duty performance or until he resigns at his own request.

The best diplomat I know is a fully charged phaser bank.

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[–] MoviemanCin 9 years ago

"Funnily?" Is that even a word?

Schrodinger's cat walks into a bar, and / or doesn't.

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[–] sidgirl 9 years ago

Well, it's in the Oxford English Dictionary (among others), and has been used since the early 1800s, so yes. It is.

Two seconds of research would have shown you that. I guess it was more fun to make a rude comment to a stranger?

*****
People said love was blind, but what they meant was that love blinded them.

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[–] the-spy 13 years ago

i have wondered about that also (haven't read the book). i would think that while queeg's career in the navy wouldn't be over, he would be placed somewhere where he couldn't do any damage and/or would have little to no authority. because he was sick, i don't think he would be dishonorably discharged, but he could have received a medical discharge.

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 13 years ago

The trouble was, Queeg was never officially diagnosed as being sick until one of the doctors admitted he had a paranoid personality on the witness stand.

That alone, I don't think, would be grounds for a medical discharge.

However, Queeg's superiors clearly had realized that he was not fit to be a commanding officer. Hence, he was never going to be promoted again or given any other command opportunity.

In the peacetime U.S. Navy, one either has to keep moving up the promotion ladder or leave the service. So, when the war ended, Queeg would simply resign his commission (i.e. retire). He would have been listed as the equivalent of an honourable discharge.

I believe that even if the relief in the typhoon hadn't taken place, Queeg would've been passed over for promotion. Queeg had been left in command of the Caine for more than a year, which was very rare for ship's captains. As well, his superiors seemed to regard him as competent but not brilliant or someone who was destined for high command.

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[–] EastCoastMariner 12 years ago

I could see him also being transferred to a vessel of less importance or causing less stress, like a small naval transport (not unlike the type from Mister Roberts.) After the war an ex-Navy officer could easily sit and pass the Merchant Marine License exam and take command of a large civilian transport making a far, far more lucrative living than a commander of a military vessel.

Options existed. Interesting thought and comments from everyone though.

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[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 12 years ago

As the war was about over, his services were no longer needed . . . he could've simply left the service . . . or some sort of desk job somewhere . . .

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[–] EastCoastMariner 12 years ago

The trial takes place in the fall of 1944, so there was still quite a bit of the war left, with some of its most brutal battles in the Pacific Theater still ahead of them. Remember, before the bombs were dropped on Japan in 1945 that ended the war, the saying amongst the U.S. troops overseas was "Golden Gate in '48." No one expected the war to be over until the end of the decade.

Someone mentioned that in the book he was transferred to a supply depot on the U.S. mainland. Either way at the very least his potential for ever commanding a combat vessel in the Navy were finished.

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[–] hisgrandmogulhighness 12 years ago

I think we'd agree that he should've been removed from authority some time before the Caine ever sailed . . .

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[–] EastCoastMariner 12 years ago

I took him (at first) as one of those old school types, the kind I sailed with here and there in my own career....

One of them just couldn't (COULDN'T can't be emphasized here enough) go a day without incident. Whether he was right or very very wrong, he needed to be a dick about some insignificant thing just to make a point that he was in charge and Master of the vessel. It was like he had to reassure himself he was in command and in control, as well as drive that point home with the officers and crew all around him, lest he lose face and confidence. Berating junior and even senior officers was a regular occurrence.

Given the nature of the target towing incident, I'd have written off the captain in my own mind as an unprofessional prick. Given the events following that day (the strawberries, the typhoon) I'd have taken it a few steps further and said there was something not right about him.

Sadly, the regulations of the U.S. military make it more difficult to properly and efficiently deal with matters like these, and more easy to ruin the careers and lives of those who wish to do good for the men under their command. Ho hum.

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[–] TorontoJediMaster 12 years ago

It wasn't so much that Queeg had a disagreeable personality and was a stickler for the most minor of details. All the officers realized that drawing a captain like that was simply the luck of the draw.

The problem was that they had no confidence in him to see them through combat operations or even problematic steaming conditions.

Queeg really lost the respect of the wardroom after the Yellowstain Incident during the invasion of Kwajelain. In the book, he never appeals to the officers for assistance. He simply demands updates on routine paperwork and then goes to bed. Afterwards, Keefer asks Willie if he noticed that Queeg always stayed on the side of the bridge that was sheltered from the beach. That night, Willie and Harding talk about the state of the ship. Harding says that when he joined the Navy, he realized he might get a captain who's an eccentric and stickler for accurate paperwork...to an annoying degree even. But, in exchange he expected the captain to be someone who can get them out of a jam when needed and be willing to fight.

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