MovieChat Forums > Genevieve (1954) Discussion > Timing of Tania's cocktail party

Timing of Tania's cocktail party


On the party invitation that Wendy receives near the start of the movie it states that her friend Tania is giving a party on SUNDAY. A few moments later Wendy informs Alan and Ambrose that Tania is having a party TOMORROW. Are we meant to infer from this that the London Brighton run begins on a Sunday?

It is on a Saturday with the return trip on the Sunday - the main protagonists of the film attend a party in Brighton on the Saturday night. We even see them go to bed on the night before the run begins - the FRIDAY night.

This is a gaffe that I certainly hadn't picked up before. Has anyone else noticed this one?

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No, presumably because no one cared. It's a brilliant movie and no one should give this 'gaffe' a second thought.

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I don't think it is a gaffe. The actual event has long taken place on a Sunday (presumably for the reason of less traffic), albeit in November, not September as in the film.

To make sense of the timing, the film must start with Alan leaving work at the Royal Courts of Justice on a Saturday morning, not Friday afternoon as everyone presumes; I'm not sure if this circumstance is historically accurate. It fits with him returning home for lunch, not dinner, and for Ambrose not being at work either. This means, of course, that the race back to London takes place on the Monday.


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The cocktail party invitation may well be a gaffe, but as to the race itself:

When the London-to-Brighton race began in 1896 it was run on a Saturday (in November), and though the race eventually lapsed for many years, it was resumed in 1927. The day was switched to Sunday in 1930. Except for the war, when it was suspended due to petrol rationing, it's been run on Sunday ever since.

However, in the film it's plain that the race starts on Saturday and they return on Sunday. Alan clearly leaves work on Friday afternoon and they depart Saturday. They go to the night club in Brighton on Saturday night, not Sunday. Obviously they wouldn't all be missing a day of work by returning on the Monday.

Holding the race on a Saturday in the film may be inaccurate, but then so is its being held in September. I suspect this change was made to enable the filmmakers to include that night club scene, since such a place was highly unlikely to have been open on a Sunday night in Britain in 1953. (And September, with much better weather and longer days, was a much easier time to film than a dreary, wet, cold and darker November.)

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However, in the film it's plain that the race starts on Saturday and they return on Sunday.


Permit that there may be a difference between your assumptions of reality and reality itself. Do you really believe that nightclubs were banned from opening on Sunday evenings in Fifties Britain? Not only is there no positive indication of the run to Brighton taking place on Saturday, I think there's definite proof to the contrary. When Ambrose arrives at Hyde Park for the start of the run, he tells Rosalind that he'd been trying unsuccessfully to contact her, to which she replies along the lines of, 'I was at some party on Friday and we all flew over to destination X.' This only makes sense if it's a Sunday morning, because i)she'd refer to Friday as yesterday if it was the night before, and ii)there'd be no time to fly abroad for a jolly and back in a single night.

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"Permit that there may be a difference between your assumptions of reality and reality itself."

Excuse me, there's no call for this superior attitude, just because someone has a different opinion from yours. Besides, if anyone is not "permitting" that there may be a difference between his assumptions of reality and reality itself, Jason_Radley, it's you -- for nowhere do you offer facts, merely your own presumptions based on opinions and bent to conform to preconcevied ideas.

In fact, after watching the movie again, doing a bit more research and asking some people in or from Britain (including my wife) who would know about such things, I've come to the conclusion that the film itself has so many contradictory aspects that its time frame (and other matters) either make no logical sense or ignore realities...meaning that this entire argument is essentially pointless because the film is so filled with errors.

To take the events at issue in sequence (any of your quotes are lifted verbatim from your posts and italicized in red):

Alan leaving work. By your time line you state this has to be on a Saturday, not only because the race is on a Sunday but because he's leaving early for lunch. However, that simply doesn't jibe with the evidence. First, the Royal Courts of Justice are essentially closed and largely deserted on Saturday. Little if any business is conducted on the weekend. Even if you were to stretch the point by arguing (without proof) that Alan was for some reason there on a Saturday, his superiors and most of the people seen in the sequence would not have been present.

Apart from the fact that little if any such work is done on weekends, we also have to remember the hallowed British tradition of "the weekend". The middle and professional classes always get away as early on Friday afternoon as possible -- probably more so then than even now. You yourself state, "I'm not sure if this circumstance is historically accurate", and it's not. You're making an assumption -- without proof -- to fit in with your preferred time line, with by your own admission no factual basis...in other words, a difference between reality and your assumption of it. You're assuming something to fit in with your theory, not finding an actual fact that supports it.

Finally, Alan Trevennor, a friend of Dinah Sheridan and historian of the film, states that Alan McKim leaves work on the Friday, and that the action takes place from Friday to Sunday. For what it's worth, a trivia entry on this site also states the film takes place from Friday, September 18 to Sunday, September 20, 1953, dates which check with the 1953 calendar.

Rosalind's remark at Hyde Park. What she says is that she was at a party Friday that got out of hand and they flew to Jersey -- less than an hour's flight from London in 1953 on prop aircraft. (It's about 20 minutes by jet today.) Ambrose says he'd been phoning her all night, meaning the previous night. So, first, it's quite possible for Rosalind to have flown over to and back from Jersey overnight. Second, if she'd been away all Saturday, why hadn't Ambrose been phoning her during the day as well? As to your point that she'd have said "last night" instead of "Friday" had the party been Friday night, I agree with you -- you'd expect her to say "last night" if that were the case.

But this, of course, assumes her party was on Friday night. Yet from what little we can surmise about the type of crowd Rosalind seems to run with (she's a model and so does not have "office hours"), they might well be the kind who'd start a party Friday afternoon and leave later on for Jersey, returning the next day. (It's unlikely they'd stay over two nights because no one would have a change of clothes, and she says the party got out of hand, meaning the trip wasn't planned). Now, it's correct that most of this is surmise and extrapolation -- though not "assumption", because I'm not assuming this is what happened, just positing it as very possible, even likely. But you're assuming she was away from Friday to Sunday without any proof, just your surmise. At best, this seems open to interpretation...or to be another example of the film's sloppiness, about which more below.

The nightclub. "Do you really believe that nightclubs were banned from opening on Sunday evenings in Fifties Britain?" Yes, except that they weren't "banned" per se. Nightclubs did not start to open on Sunday nights in Britain until well into the 1960s, but even today most don't open simply because it's not economically worth their while. The principle reason is that alcohol laws banned serving liquor anywhere near that late on a Sunday. At most, you might have been able to get a meal at a private club early on Sunday evenings (4 or 5 o'clock, and probably only in London), but there would have been no alcohol, bands, dancing or anything of that kind late Sunday night, and the clubs would have been closed.

Remember also that Alan and Wendy check into their fleabag hotel just before 9:00 PM -- the clock across from their room strikes 9 (and you can see its face) after they get to their room. They show up to meet Ambrose and Rosalind much later -- they have to have cleaned up a bit (even without hot water), dressed, then gotten to the club, which means they couldn't possibly have arrived there before 10, and probably later. They're clearly there for quite a while, probably an hour or more (not just a few minutes), dancing and talking, with Rosalind getting drunker before her trumpet solo. This just doesn't square with licensing laws and common practice for a Sunday.

So yes, I guarantee the nightclub scene could not have taken place in Britain late on a Sunday night in 1953. It had to be Saturday.

Ambrose and Alan not at work. You say that because Alan comes home for lunch, and Ambrose shows up, that this has to be a Saturday, because they're not at work -- once more, an assumption to fit your preferred time line rather than anything based on actual information. Again, I point to the habit of the professional and middle class to get away early for the weekend in Britain. However, assuming your presumption is correct -- that this couldn't be Friday because they'd both still be at work -- then how does this fit in with your belief that they return on Monday? Last I looked, Monday was a working day -- a bigger one than Friday. If the race back were on Monday both men would miss not just a few hours' work in the afternoon, but a whole day. (As, presmably, would Rosalind, even if she didn't work in an office.) This argument makes no sense at all. And it should be pointed out that there were no holidays of any kind on either September 21 or November 3, 1953 -- the only two Mondays the race could conceivably have been run on (the weekend in the movie and the actual race weekend that year).

If their working hours are an issue (and I don't think they particularly are), then having the film start on Friday makes vastly more sense than having it start on Saturday.

"Not only is there no positive indication of the run to Brighton taking place on Saturday, I think there's definite proof to the contrary." What "definite proof"? Definite proof would be one of the characters saying something like, "Why do I have to be in this car on a [Saturday/Sunday] morning." Unfortunately, nowhere in the film is there any explicit statement as to what day it is at any time. And your preference for assuming facts not in evidence to fit your preconceived notions notwithstanding, there are plenty of positive indications that the run to Brighton takes place on Saturday, and few that it's on Sunday.

Now, could the film have begun on Saturday and gone into Monday? Perhaps. But the overwhelming circumstantial evidence (for that's all there is), plus historical facts and basic logic, are against this. Since the movie never makes the times clear, any interpretation is possible. One can only judge by watching the film carefully, knowing some historical facts, making educated statements based on what we're told, and learning what people involved with the film thought. Such as it is, the evidence strongly indicates a Friday-Saturday-Sunday time frame.

Final thoughts. In truth, of course, the Brighton race is run in November, not September. It is run on a Sunday, but the Veteran Car Race (the one the film covers) is actually run on a Saturday -- today. I'm not sure about 1953, though I think it was on a Sunday then. Also in truth, the filming took place along mostly different roads than the actual race, mainly in Buckinghamshire. Not least, there are scores of continuity problems in this film, and things that don't quite add up.

In short, the film is filled with changes, flaws and inconsistencies in most respects. The goof the OP mentioned is probably accurate: Tania's party is September 20, according to the invitation -- a Sunday; and Wendy does say they have an invitation to Tania's "tomorrow"...which would indicate she was speaking on the Saturday, and the race was Sunday-Monday. On the other hand, it's also possible she simply either misspoke the line, or else the prop letter didn't match the script. The invitation and Wendy's one line are probably the strongest argument that the race starts on Sunday -- except that so much else militates against that.

So what can we conclude? Perhaps simply that the filmmakers weren't too concerned with logic or time frames or making sure every event or line of dialogue matched events logically or historically or whatever. Maybe they were just a bit sloppy in their filmmaking -- and reportedly this film was hell to make, with each of the actors at various times wanting off it. They were producing a comedy that had minimum fealty to reality. So why bother the details? Perhaps the second poster here was correct -- no one noticed this supposed goof because the movie is what's most important. Maybe that's how the film was made -- and that the precise timing of events is secondary to the enjoyment of the film.

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Wow,hobnob, I enjoyed that - and I really mean that, I'm not being sarcastic.It was very well thought out and presented.

Just one small nitpick though. London to Brighton is a rally, not a race. Leslie Mitchell makes this clear early in the film when he declares "It is not and never has been a race" and McKim recognises it when he says that, if he and Ambrose raced back, they would be thrown out of the Club.

Incidentally - Ambrose Cleverhouse - my favourite name from any film.

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Wow back, andeven. I'd forgotten all about this rumpus till I was notified of your reply. Your comments are very kind and thoughtful. Thank you!

Thanks also for your correction about the rally/race discrepancy. Mr. Mitchell did indeed make that iron-clad distinction very clear...not that every participant took heed of his observation!

Ambrose Claverhouse is a great name, isn't it? I also liked the dog!

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Not as good as Ambrose Cleverhouse though! Sorry about that. I must be more careful.

Great dog!

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Actually, I liked your version better!

Very clever, and in-house.

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Having just watched the movie again, I have been revisiting this site and although it is more than a year since the last post, I have to add my twopenneth worth.

In reality, it doesn't matter a jot when the action in the movie takes place, so it is not something that warrants much examination, but there have been some rather strange conclusuions drawn by people on this thread.

We seem to have those who believe that the action takes place from Friday to Sunday, and those who believe it to be Saturday to Monday. I am in the latter camp. Those who assume that McKim is leaving work on Friday are overlooking the fact that in 1953, and for many years after, the working week in Britain was not five days, but five and a half days. Most trades and professions worked until lunchtime on Saturday, including the courts. A few years later Alan Sillitoe published his novel "Saturday Night and Sunday Morning". Everybody would have known the significance of that title at the time. Saturday night was the ONE night of the week that a working man could go out on the town and get drunk, the ONLY night of the week that he knew he wouldn't have to get up for work the next morning, otherwise it might just as well have been called "Friday Night and Saturday Morning".

McKim is a junior barrister and he is seen wearing wig and gown, indicating that he had actually been in court that morning (barristers do not wear that get up in their offices!). On a Friday the court would be sitting all day and so McKim would not be able to take the afternoon off from a case that was still being heard. It is clearly Saturday and the court has risen for the weekend. When he gets home, Wendy refers to Tanya's party "tomorrow", i.e. Sunday as seen on the invitation. Everybody in the cinema audience in Britain in 1953 would have realised that the action was beginning on a Saturday and that the run was taking place on the Sunday (which was the day that everbody knew the actual run took place).

As for the so called "night club", who says it is a night club? It is a function which has been organised for the members of the car club and these are the only people we see in attendance. As a private function it would not be subject to public licensing laws.

Mention has been made that the return run cannot be a Monday as the participants would have to take time off work. Well the real run takes place on a Sunday, so what do you think the participants do on Monday? They take time off work to return home!

The final clincher, of course, is that if the return run was taking place on Sunday, the McKims would be back home in plenty of time to attend Tanya's party that evening whereas it is perfectly clear that they will have to miss it as they will be away from home that night.

A further point that might be made is that the street scenes of the return run, especially on the outskirts of London, show far too much commercial traffic for a Sunday. Ambrose gets stuck behind a woman in a convertible who stops to go into a shop and Ambrose then gets boxed in by a truck. On a Sunday in 1953, the shop would not be open and the tradesman in the truck would not be working. Having said that, union rules at the time would have dictated that the film was shot on weekdays, so it would have been difficult to have authentic Sunday traffic patterns on screen anyway.

Time lines in movies can often be confusing unless they put up a caption to tell you what time/day/month/year it is supposed to be. A couple of examples which come to mind are Brief Encounter and Room at the Top. Most people assume that the events in these films are taking place at the time they were made, but this is not the case. Brief Encounter is set in about 1938, not 1945. If it were 1945 there would be visible signs of the war, such as blackouts, rationing and bomb damage (the film is set in what used to be called the Home Counties, i.e the areas surrounding London, few of which were unscathed). Petrol rationing would mean that Alex and Laura would not be able to take a jaunt in the country in a borrowed car, much less actually hire one for a second trip, and, of course, nobody makes any reference to a war that has been raging for six years.

In Room at the Top, the setting is 1947/8, not 1959. We are told that Joe is 25 years old and flew with the RAF in the war. If it is 1959, he would have been 11 years old at the end of the war, a little young for service in the air force!
In the case of both films, a simple year caption at the beginning would have made things clear (but don't get me started with the even more ludicrous timeline in 1965's Life at the Top!).

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