MovieChat Forums > Red River (1948) Discussion > One of the all time greats, why no messa...

One of the all time greats, why no messages??


Red River is truely one of the greatest movies ever, a classic. Argueably both John Wayne and Montgomery Clifts greatest perforance. Perhaps the greatest western ever, next to the Searchers or Shane. So why has no one commented on it?

Anyway I'll start a topic. hopefully someone will comment on. I have read that according to the story the movie was based on. Waynes character Tom Dunson is suspossed to be shot by Clift at the end, without the women interferring as it is now. Why did they change it and do you think it would have been a better movie if Wayne would have been shot, I personally think it would be and that way the ending would stick to the dramatic dark tone of the rest of the movie.

comments are welcome

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wrong....neither of them can die....but Hawks had the
wrong actress...just as he was stupid to suck the poison out
of her at the wagon train....the end is right with their looking
at the red river d ...it is simply a little off how he gets them
there....but you are right otherwise....it is the greatest movie
ever made...forget westerns....and look at that stupid afi list
neither red river or my darling clementine is even ON the damned
thing.....rediculous....

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actually I can see arguements for both endings

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I totally agree with you. This is one of the finest westerns out there along with the Searchers and Shane. Joanne Dru’s character (Tess Millay) could have been left out as far as I’m concerned. I suppose she was needed to bring the Dunson and Garth together at the end but, damn was she windy. Howard Hawks must like his women characters to carry on verbally. Case in point is Angie Dickinson’s character in Rio Bravo.

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The movie does lose a little realism when Joanne Dru get's shot with the arrow and just sits there smirking. It get's a little more comedic later when she tells Dunson that she'll have his baby if he promises not to kill Matt. What kind of hooker is she anyway? Still, leaving these bit's of nonsense out, one of the all time great Westerns.

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I agree with all off you guys that this is of one the great westerns. One OF the greatest. But why doesnt anybody mention HIGH NOON?? Surely this is THE greatest western! Joanne Dru's performence kind of pulls down Red River from the top, where as Grace Kelly's performence as the female lead is outstanding.

I do think that they choose the right ending for the movie but again i have to say that Dru fails to give it that magical spark. I felt a little disappointment when i saw Dru's windy acting at the end. But overall Wayne and Clift showed us what great movie making is all about!!!

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Thank all of you for your Dru's acting analysis. She almost ruined the movie, especially the end!
Hawks had usually a best "flair" for his actresses but he failed on that.

Nevertheless, "Red River" is still a huge movie with an fantastic John Wayne.

By the way, "Rio Bravo" is THE greatest western, actually the greatest movie ever made. Thank you so much Howard.

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High Noon is overrated

The Gunfighter,with Gregory Peck two years earlier was far better


www.moviejustice.com

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High Noon was a great movie. So was Shane. The 1939 version of Stagecoach was exceptional as well.

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It may interest you to know that there is at least one person who felt Grace Kelly's performance in High Noon was not good enough. And that person is Grace Kelly.

She said that after watching Gary Cooper's performance, especially his facial expressions, she decided to take more acting lessons.

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actually if I was hooker and I had the chance to marry a soon to be wealthy as anything cattle barron... why not



www.moviejustice.com

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She's not a hooker - she says several times that she's concerned that Matt thought she was 'one of those ...' presumably they couldn't actually say what 'one of those ...' was, but she isn't one.

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I had no problem with the Tess Melay character, but you are right the scene were they are shooting indians and she is like all flirting with Matt and thenand arrow hits her is silly(SHE is silly)...But I loved the ending it was wondeful!
I love this film now it is definetly one of my All Time favorites.

Basta con resumir q le bese hasta la sombra...y un poco mas!

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Dru's Tess Melay was flat out eccentric but at least she wasn't boring and she sure was a (strickly Hollywood style) looker. You could argue from now until doomsday about that ending but I think some of these posters were right about Wayne's gradual softening towards Clift the closer he got to Abilene. So each did the requsite amount of manly tough stuff to each other and then just decided, hell, the beef's all here and so's the railroad- let's just bury the hatchet.

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I thought Dru played the part right. She's flat out sexy, especially when she takes that arrow in the shoulder and barely flinches as she eyes Matt. She kind of breezes in and makes everyone friends again, a mite too easy given all the drama that's been worked up, but she plays her scenes well, especially with Wayne, and definitely was a highlight of a good picture.

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Everyone pretty much agrees Joanne Dru had no place in this film. Her character could have been left out completely; if the director wanted to stick with the cop-out ending of reconciliation, Walter Brennan could have performed the function of breaking up the fight at the end just as well. Heck, his fast-talking comedic character could've mouthed Dru's lines almost verbatim.

A lot of weird tensions on the set compromised the film. Reportedly, John Ireland (Cherry), was carrying on with Joanne Dru. This angered Hawks, who had the hots for her himself, so he cut Ireland's part drastically. Also, Ireland didn't do himself any favors by drinking heavily and smoking a lot of pot during the shoot.

Looking at the film in this light, it's almost as if Hawks was Dunson and Ireland was Matt, with Joanne Dru part of a love triangle both in the film and on the set. Who knows? Maybe she was cast, and her part artificially inflated, due to that old Hollywood tradition: the casting couch. When a previous poster asked what kind of hooker she was anyway, well, maybe there's your answer.

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it would have been better to have dunson die.

it would have shown humans as they really are... we rarely change because it is so difficult for us to learn.

dunson's character was so stubborn and strong (traits that americans want to portray)... do you really think, after being embarassed by cliff's character, that dunson would give in...

probably not in real life... especially in those times...

it's the typical hollywood ending.

john wayne is the american icon... hero??? how could he be killed?

i have seen over 50 john wayne movies and he only dies in a few of them... so why would hawkes want to be original... and only in glorious fashion... i.e. seargeant stryker (saving his troops)... or in the shootish (valiantly).

if wayne's character would have died in this movie... it would have portrayed him as a selfish person, stubborn, unwilling to learn and grow...

why would you want your american idol to be human???

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I agree with both of you........this is a truly great western that anticipates themes from The Searchers but is unable to carry them out properly. If not for it's embarrasing ending it would be the best western ever. The conflict of father and son (echoed later in the Searchers) is totally compelling througout. The film is gorgeous and Hawks genius is evident till the final scene. However the need for some kind of closure to the conflict is needed. Some punishment for Dunson's pride which has gotten so many good men killed. The son MUST somehow overcome the father as occurs in The Searchers. However the "instant reconciliation" is a ridiculous device that spoils one of the truly great films in american cinema.

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We all seem in agreement here that the ending didn't work. However, I think Matt winning a quick-draw with Dunson wouldn't have worked either. What would the point of that have been?

Keep in mind that though Dunson seemed bent on killing Matt, he'd been softening, albeit in that horrible scene with Dru. His code demanded that he kill Matt, but do you think he really wanted to? He certainly had the chance. He draws his gun, fires several times, and even deliberately grazes Matt's cheek, all in an attempt to get Matt to... DRAW ON HIM!

It's as if he wants Matt to kill him. Then, he starts punching Matt, but not real hard. He pulls his punches, all the time asking what he has to do to make Matt act like a man and do... what, namely? Fight back? Kill him? Dunson is twice Matt's size and could have ripped him apart had he wanted to. I contend he didn't really want to.

I think Dunson's code demands that he confront Matt, but when you get right down to it, Dru is right: the two men love each other and can't kill each other. They are, in fact, father and son, in every way but blood. Dunson had to confront Matt, but he would rather die than kill him. Matt had to stand up to Dunson, but he would rather die than shoot him. Thus, they were at stalemate.

It makes perfect sense that they stop fighting; the error is in how clumsily and quickly the fight and the conflict were resolved. Dru, looking like she sashayed in from another picture, was not the character to do it, at least not as written and played.

Or, if you folks on this board insist on going another route, maybe the Walter Brennan character could have killed Dunson--because he knew Matt wouldn't. After all, no one knew Dunson's excesses better than this guy; in fact, he'd turned a blind eye to Dunson's faults from the start. Who had more of a right to hold Dunson to account?

(By the way, jargonaut73, it's a pleasant surprise to have run into you on another board besides the one for "The Searchers.")

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. . . it had been a different ending. Pure and simple.

Frankly, the movie ends clumsily because Dunson (John Wayne or no John Wayne) richly deserves to be humbled -- if not killed outright -- and it . . . never happens, in any way, shape or form. That's actually a lot closer to the way things would probably have worked out in real life, but since when are movies supposed to be "real life?" (Unless we're talking documentaries, which "Red River" ain't.)

I suspect that, as previously alluded to in the short story's ending, Dunson was supposed to bite the dust in the original screenplay, and at Matt's hand. Otherwise, why bother with the bit of dialogue at the film's beginning . . .

Matt: How did you know when he was gonna draw?
Dunson: By watching his eyes. Remember that.
Matt: I will.

It might be interesting to run down a copy of the original draft, if it even still exists anywhere, and see whether a new ending was tacked on (by Charles Schnee, likely, at Hawks' insistence?) to Chase's version.

-- Paul

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Aha! You've come up with the answer! The eyes have it! Matt watched Dunson lumber forward, saw in his eyes he had nothing to fear, and just stood there, impervious to the old man's taunting. Dunson draws, it is true, but Matt sees it's all for show. As for Dunson not getting his comeuppance, he did lose his herd, if only for a while, and though we are led to believe a showdown is in the offing (a la Debbie's possible killing in "The Searchers"), there's plenty of counterevidence to show Dunson, though ruthless, isn't snake-eye mean enough to shoot down the closest thing he has to a son.

His one true love is killed by Indians off-camera early in the film (the precipitating incident in so many of these tales), and young Dunson never forgets her and never marries, ultimately becoming mean-old-man Dunson, perhaps for want of a woman's leavening influences. True, he kills in defense of "his" land, but that doesn't make him all that different from his rivals for same. Before the trail drive, he's the voice of managerial reason and only cracks later from exhaustion. The trials of the trail exacerbate his worst tendencies, and he announces his intent to hang deserters only after those three days without sleep that impaired his judgment.

His mission of vengeance might have seemed the only avenue initially available to him, but one piece of evidence that shows he had second thoughts along the way was his post-fight reconciliation offer to amend his identifying brand to include a reference to Matt. He'd thought of this way before, of course, and this was his version of Ethan's will to Marty in "Searchers" (which you perceptively pointed out on the IMDb board for that film). I say, less Dru and more lonely angst of Dunson's should have been the way to go to prepare audiences for the final scene. We should have been shown Dunson, alone on the trail after his exile, drawing the new brand in the sand, along with a closeup or two of regret on his face. What we received instead was too much bait and switch. In my version, the audience wouldn't have feared Dunson would kill Matt, but that Matt would kill Dunson, not knowing of the man's softening of intent. But that's just my Hollywood ending.

"Red River" has been called "Muntiny On the Bounty" goes West, so it must be remembered that historians as well as all subsequent courts of inquiry have exonerated the good Captain Bligh. What the heck, so let it be with Dunson.

A final point: the film was withheld from initial release for some time because of a lawsuit initiated by Howard Hughes. The sometime moviemaker insisted the final confrontation was too similar to his (awful!) Western "The Outlaw" (subject to a delayed release as well, for controversies regarding Jane Russell's bosom, or, as I think Groucho Marx put it, "A Sale of Two T*tties"). The ending of "Red River" was cut and recut until Hughes was satisfied. Perhaps he's to blame.

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[deleted]

Ah well, ma'am . . .

We're busy chipping away at another of those western "classics" about which some of us love to yap so knowingly. Not at all, er, on the class of a certain Gary Cooper epic I might mention (and you know, of course, that I don't mean "High Noon.")

-- Paul

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When Paul says "chipping away," he of course refers to my windy tendency to bury an issue in cow chips, or male bovine effluvium (bulls**t), and muddying even further the 'big muddy' that is Western lore. Print the legend? Heck, I type the obfuscation! Yap? Yup!

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[deleted]

Picture this as the big climax: Dunson and Matt step out into the street to face off -- yup, forget that nonsense about Matt not wanting to kill Dunson and vise-versa, by golly, his blood's up and his life's on the line! They slap leather and . . . Matt cranks one right through Dunson's ten-ring! Drops him like a sequoia. (Never mind where would you find a sequoia out that way, for cryin' out loud, this is Hollywood, a tree's a tree, shoot it in Griffith Park!)

Okay, so Dunson's lying there deader than Carrie Nation's hope chest, Matt's standing over him with a look of -- what, regret? sorrow? relief? whatever -- as Walter Brennan and Joanne Dru gather around him looking down at the fallen patriarch (well, maybe Brennan's busy trying to remember where he left his dentures but he's standing there anyway, this is Hollywood, do I have to keep reminding you?), and finally Brennan says, "How'dya know when he was gonna draw, young Matt?" And Matt shakes his head, says, "Just somethin' someone told me once." (Pauses a beat before going on.) "Go find a Bible and I'll read over him." (Pauses another beat, then turns to Dru) "And you go get a shovel and start diggin'. 'Bout time you made some kind of contribution to this flick!"

(Music up. Fade to black as Brennan blows his nose.)

Or maybe I've just been reading too much of your stuff on that other board, Martin!

-- Paul

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Your ending, Paul, would suggest the apple not falling far from the (surrogate) tree, with Matt turning into old man Dunson after all (the Corleone effect, if you will). As for Dru wielding a shovel, I suspect she has greater (and more suitable) expertise handling quite another manly implement.

Heck, we could just have her blow both men away in a hissy (hussy?) fit, leaving Brennan the last man standing and likely inheritor of all those heifers (and the comely Miss Dru as well, there not being much difference). He who laughs last laughs best, with or without dentures.

And to 'Strangetruth': If you remain keen on seeing the Duke get multiple comeuppances, I suggest you view "The Sands Of Iowa Jima," "The Cowboys," and "The Shootist" (as well as "The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance," where his fate, though off-screen, should be sadly humbling enough for your tastes). I also think he was eaten by an Octopus, or some such, in an early film whose title escapes me.

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[deleted]

"Reap the Wild Wind," DeMille, 1942. Don't break out the garlic bread and dip just yet, for I may be wrong about the Duke being the Leviathan's morsel. It might have been co-stars Ray Milland or Robert Preston or even Raymond Massey. Goodness, it's been so long since I saw this one.

But it's just as well from your perspective, 'cause in '42, John Wayne had not yet become the Duke you apparently love to hate. That didn't happen until 1948 and "Red River." Both before and after, though, the big lug got bopped on the head or thrown from a horse or even shot quite regularly onscreen, so your enjoyment of his trials can probably be found in any random picture of his.

If his consumption by a carnivorous creature is a requirement for you, I have it on good authority that no less than Marlene Dietrich sapped our stalwart lad of his manly energies in an early affair. So smitten was Dietrich, that when she first saw him, she turned to her manager and said: "Daddy, buy me that." Thanks to that darn Hays Code, a tamer version of their passion can be seen in "The Seven Sinners" (1940) and "The Spoilers" (1942). It may surprise you, if you are unaware, that our weathered monolith was quite pretty in his youth and catnip for the likes of Dietrich and others. After seeing him in these films (and especially if you go back to his first, 1930's "The Big Trail"), perhaps you'll want to envelope him yourself (assuming I am correct in guessing your gender, though that is not a requirement, as Wayne's early hunkiness transcended all known orientations).

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Here I go again, wandering the Red River valley, quite the vale of tears (or is it the, er, "sum of all tears," then?). And yes, by the way, Martin, you've guessed the gender as regards strangetruth (and in passing, forgive me if I talk out of school here, lass!), although I should add that she's also a lady of keen discernment, a wit that's rare in its keenness, and possessed of a generous heart.

Wayne does wind up as octopus hors d'oeuvres in "Reap The Wild Wind," while Massey collects a pistol ball in the brisket for his various villainies. (For the life of me, I can't remember what befalls Milland or Preston, although I do remember Hedda Hopper being in the film. Sheesh!) Wayne fared quite poorly every time he donned the diver's gear, by the way; let us not forget the ever-so-egregious "Wake Of The Red Witch," which singlehandedly would have sunk the career of many a lesser star than the Duke.

As to "The Big Trail," well, there's a mixed bag of goodies if ever I saw one, although it's noteworthy (aside from pointing up the limitations of that era's primitive sound recording systems) for a truly over-the-top performance by Tyrone Power, Sr., as the head heavy. (Lots of good location shooting, I'll add, and they wound up virtually reliving many of the hardships of those early pioneers while filming this epic.)

-- Paul

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His fate in diving films apparently did not dissuade the Duke from enjoying the sea. Surprisingly, he seemed happier underwater than in the saddle (there's a pun there somewhere) and became quite the dedicated diver and seaman. Is that a yachting cap? No, it's the Duke's toupee!

I've had the pleasure of recoiling at the sight of Tyrone Power, Sr. only once, in "The Big Trail," and have no idea if his truly frightening visage was purely the result of makeup worthy of Lon Chaney or some genetic deformity. Talk about a Bluto or Brutus (or whatever the name was of Popeye's cartoon nemesis)! That he could spawn a dreamboat like Tyrone Jr. makes me wonder what a beauty Mom must have been.

Had such a brute shown up on the trail in "Red River," slim-hipped Matt would have shot him on sight simply for offending him aesthetically. Still, the prospect of Tyrone Sr. menacing the lovely Dru would have been worth the price of admission. (I dare say, she latched onto Matt so quickly in the film because filthy beasts like Power had constituted the bulk of her clientele in that profession of hers she was so desperate to escape.)

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[deleted]

[deleted]

Sorry if the garlic bread remark threw you off your feed. Just what does one eat with octopus? Fava beans and a nice chianti? Different film, I fear.

Put complete faith in Paul's recommendations; he is indeed a trusted guide. For Hollywood Babylon, though, you may wish to rely on someone like me to be your Dark Lord. As you have just seen "Stagecoach," perhaps the following will amuse you. According to the bio I'm reading, John Wayne's second wife was a Mexican party girl he stole from Ray Milland. It seems Ray treated her like the woman of questionable virtue she might have been, whereas Duke treated her the way the Ringo Kid treated Dallas (Claire Trevor) in "Stagecoach." He won her heart with boyish, naive, reverent kindness and good manners, and even after the inevitable divorce a decade or so down the road, he always referred to her as the love of his life. The fiery Chata did aim a loaded .45 at him one night, though, meaning she likely shared, if only sporadically, your wish to see the big lug gunned down.

As for the Duke being a switch-hitter, as you put it, there is no evidence that he was anything but a manly man (and while this discussion might seem better suited to the Monty & Cherry thread, I shall proceed nonetheless). Aside from Marlene, there seems to have been a paucity of womanizing but a plethora of dubiously platonic friendships with bombshells like Maureen O'Hara. Working as he did in a sea of pansexuals (Hollywood being what it is), the archconservative JW was surprisingly at ease in their presence; Paul tells me, though, that Wayne decked Laurence Harvey for making a pass at him on the set of "The Alamo" ("Just one night, Duke, let me be your queen" was reportedly Harvey's rather graceless proposition).

Then, too, Duke's real name was Marion; he walked like a pansy who overcompensated; he favored suits to dungarees; he spent most of his free time on yachts and beaches. Somewhat incongruously in light of his public image, Wayne was quite the metrosexual in private life (that term not yet having been invented, of course). For those of you out there not up on the current lingo, don't be alarmed: the word merely refers to men who are fashion and grooming conscious. That Wayne appeared to be. All man with his buddies, and a diffident gentlemen with the ladies. Seems like an okay bloke to me.

I fear modern women like yourself may recoil from Wayne's later screen persona. Seeing his days were numbered as a romantic lead, he started playing older men while still a young one ("Red River" is just one example), and matured into essaying Western and military characters too rough, tough, gruff, and (with the passage of years) borderline ugly to have much romantic appeal. Leonardo DiCaprio he ain't. But for guys like me who are sadly undergoing a similar metamorphosis, he's somewhat of a patron saint.

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[deleted]

Gentle Lady--

So many young women's behinds were smacked in films of that era that it took me a few moments to conclude that the Western you are speaking of must be "McClintock!," a 1963 cowboy update of Shakespeare's "Taming Of the Shrew." I don't recall for sure whether bottoms were smacked in the original play, but they certainly were in the Broadway musical version, "Kiss Me Kate." So, if such impertinent acts performed on pert posteriors offends you, blame the film's classic antecedents, not Mr. Wayne.

I do agree with you that as time went on, and especially in his later years, the subject of our discussion became more star than actor and played ever more to his legend. In the 1960s, his Westerns especially became less drama than light-hearted romps, and I would not include them should I compile a list of his better efforts.

Wayne did excel in playing difficult men, and some of these men I fear you would love to hate. That doesn't mean Wayne played them poorly; rather, I think, it means he played such characters all too well.

For more mannerly comportment, look no further than Wayne's cavalry officers in "She Wore A Yellow Ribbon" and "Rio Grande," almost back-to-back releases from 1949 and 1950. In them, Wayne is as fine an officer and gentleman as you'd ever want to meet. And "Rio Grande," co-starring Maureen O'Hara, even brought a tear to my jaundiced eye in its depiction of the estrangement and ultimate reconciliation of a mature, dignified husband and wife (I discuss the matter further, if I may be bold enough to suggest you go there, on IMDb's discussion board for this film).

Paul and I have posted voluminously on "The Searchers" board as well. A few posts down on "The Greatest" thread, a number of the "Searchers" gang wax rhapsodic about our hero's skills (granted, the deck is stacked). But if you seek further explanations of Wayne's immortal appeal, this would be a fine place to start, if I do say so myself.

The films themselves remain the primary evidence in this court of public opinion. There are, I'm afraid, a lot of mediocrities among his 160+ credits. These I prefer to ignore in favor of cherishing the dozen or so that have become near and dear to my cynical heart.

Happy viewing, kind lady--or, considering his many Westerns, should I say "Happy Trails"?

P.S. Thank you for the culinary suggestions. We American bachelors usually think of food as mere fuel and as such never consider dietary options beyond whatever may be liberally smothered with ketchup and salt. Oh, dear, I fear I may have turned your stomach yet again...

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According to Tim Dirks of filmsite.org...Borden Chase..who co-wrote the screenplay with Charles Schnee..from his own novel, hated the ending of the film........in the original story Dunson's wound - from Cherry - causes him to collapse, and he soon dies. Matt and Tess bury him in Texas beside the Red River.

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this is ne of the best and I like john wayne he's the best!

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Interesting differences of opinion here.

As some of you have said, I found the end didn't sit quite right. Too much tension is built for the payoff to be such an undemanding collective sigh of 'aaaaooo, well that's nice' from the audience. Don't get me wrong, I think the film is excellent, but in order to totally satisfy it needed something equal to the dramatic punch of a death after such a build up. Obviously one of the 2 main characters are the only candidates that would suffice and I don't claim to know how it could have been worked into the narrative. Cherry's death is another example of a great and tense setup that goes nowhere.

As for the controversial lady, I thought the scene with Matt when she's shot by an arrow was great fun. Her reaction may have been totally unrealistic, but it was just what you might expect from Rosalind Russell, Katherine Hepburn etc. in one of Hawks' screwballs. And after a long time spent with such manly men, the late introduction of the films only real female character had to be a larger than life scene.

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[deleted]

i'm waiting for the 1988 remake myself, i've just been wanting to see that for always. this original aired a while ago, but i didn't want to ruin some of the experience of watching the 1988 version incase i ever come by that sometime.


it rained and it rained,
through nights and days,
wind was blowing so hard,
beating against the windows and walls,
with all the power gone,
trees laying on the road,
one can only wonder, are the other places in this state,
receptions are low, under the dark sky at day,
mellow people on the go,
i went wondering, what is going on,
the weather didn't use to be like this before,
this rain and storm never seem to let go,
if it wasn't for the wind,
i'd think the world stood still,
these days go on,
reception is gone,
it rained every night, and every day.

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