Great but Flawed


Before I start I want to say this one of the best western and classic. But I still think it is not as great as it could have been. I feel the main weakness in this movie is women. I don’t mean to sound like some sexist jerk but I think the scenes with women are bad. I think the roles of the women are forced and unneeded. I'm not completely against women in westerns. With of course the exception of Coleen Gray who's character partly accounts for Dunson's bitterness. Even their scene together is a little too cheesy. The role in the film that hurts it the most is Joanne Dru's. It seemed like the studio just threw here in the movie to try and have a romance. It really didnt work at all. Her scense are so cornball and useless that they harm the tension that had been going on earlier between Matt and Dunson. The love interest also affects the ending of the film. Just because Matt finds a women Dunson forgets all about the cattle drive. This is way too hard to believe that Wayne's character who is so vengeful and bitter to let bygones be bygones. Putting these thing aside this is a great western. So I want to know if anyone else thinks this movie looses its edge a little bit in towards the end of the movie. I can’t be the only one

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I agree... The ending was absolutely horrid. It almost made me question the greatness of the entire movie. The few scenes in the movie during which I truly felt uncomfortable were those with women, especially the Indian ambush scene around the covered wagons when Jaonee Dru gives a very flat moment of acting, and the ARROW, oh god the ARROW. She could have atleast made the slightest sign of pain or surprise or any emotion when that arrow hit her. Well, the movie is still great and historically significant (John Wayne proved he could act), and I still love it, despite its obvious flaws.

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I agree with you. We get such great characterization of Wayne up until he meets with Dru, then all of a sudden he completely loses his edge.
It's not plausible that this guy who has already killed 3 of his comrades, and was going to kill two more, is now a big softy because of this chick.
I dont think it really ruins the movie or anything but the fact that everyone just forgives Wayne so quickly at the end sorta bugged me.
That comment about the arrow is so true by the way. When i first saw it i didnt even think it hit her. I figured it went through her shirt and stuck her there or something. Brutal job by Dru.

You're good kid, real good. But as long as I'm around you'll always be second best.

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Man I am glad somebody agrees with me! I thought that I might have been too harsh when I posted this message. Maybe they should remake it with a more realist and interesting ending. I can’t blame the film makers because I heard the studio forced most of the bad scense with Dru. Then again a remake might not work.

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They did do a remake - a TV movie. It starred James Arness and Bruce Boxlightner(sp?) in the Wayne & Clift roles. It had almost the same dialogue and scenes as the original.

You watch the remake and then you will understand how good the original is and what a difference Howard Hawks makes.

The same contrast of effect of the director (John Ford this time) can be seen by watching the original Stagecoach and then the 1960's version. Ford's version does a much better and more eloquent job of story telling and with no more than half the dialogue

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I was ready to jump all over you. I'm watching it now and all that great "guy stuff" and the grandiosity and the history and that wonderful Hawks natural dialog. And eating up that Clift performance. And then midst all of this, seeing "Great but Flawed" kinda pushed my buttons.

But, you know, you're right.

All great movies, like all diamonds, have flaws. That's where the cutting comes in. So I think in the case of Red River, that the great stuff so overwhelms the admitted weakness with the romantic interest - it does seem forced, almost as if someone said, "Hey, we gotta have some women!" - that I'm not bothered by it at all. So, the "Great but Flawed" stuff, as right as it is, seems to me a bit carping.

I'm wondering, though, after seeing Master and Commander work without being burdened by "Gotta have a romantic interest," if it's possible to resolve the conflict between Matt and Dunson, without Dru's intervention, in a dramatically valid way, so that they wouldn't end up killing each other. Something might work logically, but would it work dramatically?

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You are definitely NOT being a sexist jerk. I am a woman, a young woman even, who normally likes romance, but when you have this great story and acting then you throw Dru's character in there it hurts the awesome emotion and feeling of this movie. I admit that I hoped Dunson and Matt would resolve their conflict and I did like how he shot at him and started beating him up. Having them fist-fight eachother was very emotional and well thought of, IT WAS NOT NEEDED TO HAVE DRU JUMP IN, MAKE THEM STOP, AND SAY A TON OF WORTHLESS CRAP!

Excuse me for my shouting but I had so loved the beginning of this movie, when they threw Dru's character in there I was extremely dissapointed and horribly let down by the ending. Just the same I love this movie and believe it should be attributed as one of the greatest.

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Talk about the most dead-on thread. I agree 100 percent. Just a big, beautiful film that got a little off kilter near the end, not enough to bring it way down, but enough to keep it from being really 'Great'.

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A question I've had since 1948 is, did Dunson kill Cherry, or just wound him?
The moving scene shows Cherry in the arms of bystanders, but we never know.

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It's been awhile since I've seen it, but I believe that Cherry gets shot in the hand. And with a 45 colt, you'd need help

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I think the fate of Cherry is unclear, but not looking good. It'd be fine by me if he got shot in the hand, and fair of Dunston since that's where Cherry winged him, but my sense is Dunston sent him to Boot Hill. I don't see him getting up, just a crowd forming around him as the camera follows Wayne to the conclusion.

That sort of annoys me, because while Cherry's not a nice guy, he behaves honorably throughout the movie and actually gets shot because he fears Matt won't draw on Dunston and that Dunston will kill him. So he tries to stop Dunston, not by drawing but by talking, and that's why he loses.

It's actually my biggest problem with the film, especially here but elsewhere too, how Dunston gets away with doing some pretty horrible things just because he's drunk and angry. Others talk about Joanne Dru, but I liked her, especially the scene where she gets hit with the arrow and doesn't flinch. Her hottitude reading is off the charts there. (Don't know about that arrow, though, as the Indian attack was coming from the other side.)

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Cherry Valance is not worried about Matt Garth, he just figures he's gonna get
his shot at the championship before the showdown with Matt and Dunston.

Anyway, I have a review of Red River if anyone wants to check it out.

Bureaucrats need love

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I first saw this movie as a young boy shortly after it was released, an many times since. It remains a classic despite its flaws, all of which are stated here and I agree with. The thing that bugs me most, and alwyas has, is that Matt did a GOOD JOB with the herd and had a check for $50,000 made out to Tom Dunson in his hat. Hawke's somehow though it not necessary to resolve that fact. After all, the whole conflict was about Dunson being broke and attempting this unprecedented cattle drive as a desperate move. He offerred his neighbors $2 a head for any of their cattle that got mixed in. His neighbor seemed delighted at that price and Matt got $21 head at the head. This had to exceed all of Dunson's expectations. Yes, he was angry and disappointed that Matt took the herd but that huge check, made out to him, should have been proof that Matt was not trying to steal the herd, just fulfill Dunson's desperate dream.

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I believe the point is “control”. I don’t think it would have mattered if Matt had negotiated for half the state of Texas. Dunson is a control freak and when Matt took over it was the ultimate insult and betrayal. Throughout the movie he is telling everyone what to do and when to do it...when he says jump, everyone just asks how high.

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This question needs its own thread. Does it already have one?

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I'm a girl, and I find this entire plot aspect to be a major flaw in "Red River". It's actual one of my pet-peevs, when writers cobble on romantic subplots to stories where they are not in the least bit necessary("Females won't go to it if it doesn't have a sappy romance"). I find this practice patronizing and insulting.

So no, you're are not being sexist.

If the romance angle worked, or added to the film, that would be an entirely different matter. But it doesn't.

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I basically agree with those on the thread. But no one mentioned the most ridiculous thing about the Dru scenes -- when Matt sucks out the poison from the arrow wound. I agree too that the special effects of the arrow wound were pretty poor -- at first it looked like the arrow was sticking in the wagon, above her shoulder. And then the dialogue in the Dru scenes were awful for the most part, just as embarrassing as the sucking of the arrow wound. Everything in most of the scenes with Dru were was rushed and implausible, like the silly argument ("you mad at me?") during the Indian raid, her sudden fascination with Matt, the love at first sight, Dunstan suddenly wanting a real son, etc.... .... ......... Still, her character served some purposes, like (1) reminding Dunston of a past love and that Matt was in a similar situation; it softened Dunston; and (2) she was a device to end the fight at the end, although the Walter Brennan character could have done it as well. ... .... ..... I had just started a new thread asking whether Cherry (the John Ireland character) was dead, but I just deleted it since it is covered here. I'd rather he live.... ... .... Loved the movie, of course.

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yeah, they really wimped out on the ending; especially after Dunson shoots Cherry, you're ready for this tension to explode, but no, only some shots in the wind, some punches and the rantings of a woman in love, and a chummy ending for the two men...with cherry bleading in the background. Ridiculous.

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They were soft at the end, because they were soft throughout the movie. It just being hidden. The end kind of reveal it.

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But what of Cherry's fate?

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Howard Hawks traditionally wove his cinematic women into the realm of male action, almost as if to prove their worth by making them step into the fracas and "become men." John Ford, conversely, tended to keep the male and female spheres separate and distinct.

Overall, I don't have a problem with the (rather sappy) women in Red River, and they do bring some sensuality to the enterprise. But to be sure, the best scenes involve just the men on the trail, and the film's tension and intensity slacken once Tess Millay sort of replaces Tom Dunson on screen. Hawks probably could have left her out and instead focused on Dunson's wearily embittered stalking, and it would have made for an even tauter, darker, more ferocious affair. Then again, I personally find the moment when the arrow "penetrates" Tess Millay to be one of the most sensual cinematic experiences ever. It even brings her to "orgasm," as evidenced by her slap of Matt Garth.

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Yeah, with all the "phallic image" talk surrounding this film, no one mentions the hetero one with that arrow. It's a pretty hot moment for 40s cinema, and I think Dru was one of the undermentioned babes of her time.

Just seeing the film again, Cherry's fate seems ambiguous. He is conscious, propping himself up by his elbow, and looks more winged than gutshot, after Dunston shoots him. Later he is entirely prone, when seen in the background in the beginning of the battle between Dunston and Matt. But maybe he's still hanging in there and recovering his strength. Possibly he may make it.

Anyone notice how slow Cherry reacted to that bullet hit? Or how that bullet must have curved to hit him square, from where Dunston's revolver was pointed?

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Many posters here have censured the ending of Red River, and it's true that it represents a bit of a compromise and a somewhat absurd contrivance. That said, there are definite reasons behind Hawks' ending, and these ideas need to be conjured with.

First, many Westerns of the forties and fifties, including fellow classics Fort Apache (John Ford, 1948) and The Searchers (Ford, 1956), feature compromised endings of one sort or another. (For example, in The Searchers, Ethan Edwards ultimately refuses to kill Debbie even though that had been his relentless goal for years.) In other words, Hawks was constrained and consigned to the conventions of the time, which guarded against tragic or disillusioned endings, especially in Westerns. High Noon (Fred Zinneman, 1952) served as an exception to the rule, with Gary Cooper's marshal bitterly tossing his badge into the dust at the film's conclusion. Howard Hawks, however, was an ardent traditionalist, and neither he nor John Wayne agreed with the message of High Noon, hence leading them to make Rio Bravo at the end of the 1950s. The point here is that Hawks was limited by the sensibilities of his day, and he subscribed to those same sensibilities. Ultimately, he held an optimistic view of the Old West, and eventually the sun was going to break through the dark clouds in his pictures.

Secondly, as I've already mentioned, Hawks featured strong women in his films, women who stepped into the conflict and proved their worth by acting like men. Sure enough, at the end of Red River, Tess Millay acts with the authority, anger, and directness of a man in breaking up the fight and ordering a reconciliation. She almost acts like a protective sheriff, and in many senses, that's how Hawks viewed his cinematic women, as mobile, strong-minded figures who would step into the fray and keep men out of trouble.

Third, let's remember that Tom Dunson loved Matt Garth as a surrogate son, so threats aside, the idea that the patriarch would really kill his protege was always dubious. Indeed, chances are that Dunson's ferocious machismo may have partly been a front used to conceal a soft spot inside.

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Dru gives a very flat moment of acting, and the ARROW, oh god the ARROW. She could have atleast made the slightest sign of pain or surprise or any emotion when that arrow hit her.

First of all, as I've already noted, Hawks wanted his women to act like men and prove their physical and mental toughness, and the scene with the arrow is a case in point. Tess Millay acts not like a wimpy woman, but rather in the manner of a male hero, taking the arrow in stride rather than complaining and crying.

Secondly, and more importantly, Slokes and I have noted the sexual symbolism of this scene. Essentially, it's played for sex rather than violence, and it's the movie's real sex scene (in symbolic form, of course). Personally, I find the moment when the arrow penetrates Millay's body to be an erotic turn-on of the highest order, and I'll bet that that's what the filmmakers intended. And so again, the scene and Dru's acting need to be viewed in terms of sexual symbolism rather than "realism." Indeed, the "arrow" moment and the moment when Matt Garth stands up to Tom Dunson over the proposed hanging are two of the most memorable epiphanies in the history of American cinema.

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Very deep analysis but I can't go along with your apparent bias towards this film.

The story was fine and unfolded well. Dunson's ruthless character drew fear and respect. However, the film lost points because of the staged acting, particularly during the scenes with the female actors, and the homosexual undercurrents.

6/10

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the homosexual undercurrents.


To the extent that they exist, I don't know why they constitute a demerit. For instance, they only enhance the idea that Montgomery Clift's character represents a new kind of male that calls the dogma of John Wayne's character and the concept of traditional masculinity into question. For a film made just after World War II, Red River was at least a decade ahead of its time, maybe twenty or thirty years ahead of its time (in those regards).

I wouldn't say that I'm "biased" toward the film. There are some weaker aspects, especially to contemporary eyes, but overall, Red River is masterly balanced, elegant, intimate, almost spontaneous in some of its rhythms and moments, and important without trying to be important.

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Funny thread. I'm trying to recall a Hawk's film where the woman were believeable. They're either soiled doves or untouchable angels and always ball busting succubi.

I'm not saying we won't get our hair mussed!

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