MovieChat Forums > Fort Apache (1948) Discussion > Suicide by Apache

Suicide by Apache

posted 14 years ago by Keatonics
7 replies | jump to latest

All along the way, it seems to me, Thursday knew he was making foolish command decisions, right up to the point where he lead his troupes into an ambush. He had been warned, yet failed to head the warnings and wisdom of York and Collingwood. He was well aware of the outcome.

Why he would lead his men to their deaths is only speculation, when it is obvious that his mission was suicide, not conquest.

When Cochise returned the regimental flag, he was telling York that this was not necessary. What was Thursday trying to prove? And what was Ford trying to say by glorifying him in the final scene between York and the reporters?

(Didn't you want York to take Thursday across his knee and give him a good spankin'?)

[–] phillipsdan83 11 years ago

Thursday underrated the Apache and had no respect for them. He only commits suicide by Apache when he recognizes he's blundered. Ford was also making the point that a lot of our heroes are manufactured.

[–] ljspin 11 years ago

Col. Thursday had spent much of his career as a desk soldier -- he knew the manual, but he didn't know reality. He believed that he understood how things were to be run, and in his hubris, refused to adapt, refused to listen to advice, and, in the words of phillipsdan83, "underrated the Apache and had no respect for them." His only redemption is that he died with his men -- and that he spared Lt. O'Rourke, as well as York, from the coming disaster.

And, yes, many "heroes are manufactured." Look at General George Armstrong Custer, who's last stand influenced the climax of this movie. General Custer blundered into the massacre through his own hubris, and then the General's widow, Libby Bacon Custer, spent the rest of her life building up her husband's reputation. And in the context of the movie, what would have been accomplished if York had told Michael O'Rourke that his father was sent to the slaughter and had told Philadelphia that her father was an idiot. I think, in this case, making Thursday a hero was an honourable thing -- not for Thursday himself, but for his family and the families of the men who were killed. It made them all heroes.

[–] phillipsdan83 11 years ago

York didn't need to tell that to Michael...Michael himself was saved from the massacre as well. Thursday is heavily implied to have been a Civil War hero, but one without frontier experience. And he thought more glory was to be gained fighting Sioux or Cheyenne. But nothing would have been gained by letting Philadelphia know of her father's stupidity.

[–] Mississippi20 9 years ago

spoilers ahead...

Well-said, I think ljspin hit the nail on the head.......Thursday was arrogant and probably bent on self-glory.

Wayne's character lies at the end to protect the dignity of the brave men who Thursday led into a slaughtering (hence the reflection in the window of the cavalry as he lies) - these are the real heroes. It's a doozy of an ending. It's also reminiscent of 'The Man Who Shot Liberty Valance' and the whole thing about fact vs. legend. We are to question the legend.

[–] magolding 9 years ago

My post in "Technically Yorke Spoke the Truth" does point out one big ethical flaw in York's cover up.

[–] magolding 9 years ago

Keatonics wrote:

When Cochise returned the regimental flag, he was telling York that this was not necessary. What was Thursday trying to prove? And what was Ford trying to say by glorifying him in the final scene between York and the reporters?

Perhaps Keatonics should go back to school about the types of military flags.

Battalion or regimental flags are usually called colors, but cavalry colors are called standards (after a type of medieval flag they vaguely resemble). In most armies there is only one color per regiment or battalion, but in some, such as the British and American armies, each regiment or battalion has a "stand" of two colors (or standards in the cavalry).

In the American army the colors or standards consist of a national color or standard which is the national flag with the unit's name and number written on and the regimental color or standard based on the national coat of arms or seal.

In modern times U.S. cavalry regimental standards have a yellow background, the branch color of cavalry. Cavalry regimental standards originally had blue backgrounds, like infantry colors, and the cavalry originally didn't have national standards. In the late 1880s and early 1890s the background color was changed to yellow and cavalry regiments were given national standards.

In these stills and poster you can see the national and regimental standards in the last stand scene.

https://images.search.yahoo.com/images/view;_ylt=AwrB8pZjiJRWVRkAtlgunIlQ;_ylu=X3oDMTI0MHByZjJuBHNlYwNzcgRzbGsDaW1nBG9pZAMwZDVhNjU0MTEzZjM4Njk0ZDM2NTg3MWVhOTkyMGUwMwRncG9zAzE4NARpdANiaW5n?.origin=&back=https%3A%2F%2Fimages.search.yahoo.com%2Fyhs%2Fsearch%3Fp%3DFort%2BApache%26fr%3Dyhs-mozilla-001%26hsimp%3Dyhs-001%26hspart%3Dmozilla%26nost%3D1%26tab%3Dorganic%26ri%3D184&w=1200&h=952&imgurl=image.toutlecine.com%2Fphotos%2Fm%2Fa%2Fs%2Fmassacre-de-fort-apache-07-g.jpg&rurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.toutlecine.com%2Fimages%2Ffilm%2F0006%2F00066315-le-massacre-de-fort-apache.html&size=367.8KB&name=Le+Massacre+de+%3Cb%3EFort+Apache%3C%2Fb%3E+Image+4+sur+14&p=Fort+Apache&oid=0d5a654113f38694d365871ea9920e03&fr2=&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&tt=Le+Massacre+de+%3Cb%3EFort+Apache%3C%2Fb%3E+Image+4+sur+14&b=181&ni=160&no=184&ts=&tab=organic&sigr=12jcj61kr&sigb=142otsfel&sigi=122q53omm&sigt=11g5hk4tl&sign=11g5hk4tl&.crumb=9MOB7iROFuJ&fr=yhs-mozilla-001&hsimp=yhs-001&hspart=mozilla

https://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://c8.alamy.com/comp/BKRARD/fort-apache-1948-henry-fonda-john-wayne-ward-bond-john-ford-dir-frta-BKRARD.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-fort-apache-1948-henry-fonda-john-wayne-ward-bond-john-ford-dir-frta-29402225.html&h=937&w=1300&tbnid=hGsltW0IdjS74M:&docid=vOjx8xU9y-OSxM&ei=WHGUVqT3PIuva7aatLAL&tbm=isch&ved=0ahUKEwikg7H0qKPKAhWL1xoKHTYNDbYQMwgeKAIwAg

https://www.movieposter.com/poster/MPW-63949/Fort_Apache.html

http://buddiesinthesaddle.blogspot.com/2010/07/fort-apache-1948.html

http://explore.bfi.org.uk/4ce2b6aa79614

Companies in a cavalry regiment had and have their own flags, called guidons after a type of medieval flag. Guidons look very different from standards.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guidon_%28United_States%29

https://www.google.com/search?q=us+army+guidons&biw=1280&bih=887&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiZ7fnOraPKAhXHXhoKHTjnDJQQ_AUIBygC

Stills from Custer of the West also show standards and guidons.

http://alchetron.com/Custer-of-the-West-36258-W

http://www.allposters.com/-sp/Custer-of-the-West-Posters_i10708741_.htm

http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-robert-shaw-custer-of-the-west-1967-30915610.html

In Fort Apache there are at least four trops or companies in the final battle and thus at least four guidons. In one shot four guidons can be seen side by side during the charge - which would be a very unusual arrangement.

The flag which Cochise returns is one of the troop guidons, not a standard or gegimental flag.

[–] Blueghost 8 years ago

He wanted to make a name for himself. But found that policing the Apache tribe was not the way to do it, so he decided to go out shooting.