MovieChat Forums > Spellbound (1945) Discussion > Question...how was JB involved in the ki...

Question...how was JB involved in the killing?


I just finish the movie and had a couple of questions I’m trying to figure out... ***SPOILERS ALERT***

So Gregory Peck's character didn't kill the real Edwards but how did he know what he knew? His dreams and dry-spells and all. Was he there at the club and the slopes and saw Dr. Edwards and Dr. Murchison‘s conformation? Was that how he dreamt what really happen?

He felt guilty about "killing" his brother...but how did he know the real Dr. Edwards that he would take his place because of that guilt? Did he see Dr. Edwards killed?

One last question, the scar from his hand, the old 3rd degree burn, how did that have anything to do with the movie?

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I think tha J.B was with Edwares when he was was killde, and that Dr. Murchison knew that JB would take the blame for the murderm, because of the guilt complex. I also think that he was at the club, because he needed to find Dr Edwardes. I guess I have to see the film again to fill in the blanks..

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Just watched Spellbound last night with some friends who all loved it. (we are 22,24, and 25 years old so young people do love Hitch). Anyway, I think the burn had nothing to do with the killing, it was just JB trying to remember his past and the burn was from an army injury in his past. Id say, he went with Dr.Edwards to ski, Dr.M knew about JBs past problems dealing with his brother, probably why JB was seeing Dr. Edwards? So then he was with Dr. E when he was confronted by Dr. M. He probably remembered what happened but it was in his subconscience since his guilt complex about his brother kicked in, so thats why his dream, his subconscience, remembered it in tiny bits. Thats what I got from it anyway.

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I'm a HUGE Hitch fan but I hadn't seen Spellbound until last night. What a wonderful movie experience. Hitch, Bergman and Peck did a wonderful job!

About JB's guilt complex, I think it was triggered during skiing because of the slope, that reminded him of the accident that killed his brother. That was in his subconscious, but it came back, somehow, because of the similar experience (going down a white slope).

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I think that JB was a Medic in the Army and that's how he got burned.

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Yes, J.B. was skiing with Edwards when Dr. Murchison shot Edwards. Since J.B. knew nothing of Murchison until he arrived @Green Manor, his guilt & paranoia convinced him that he'd killed Edwards.

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Firstly, I don't believe there were many chair-lifts in the 40s. People carried their skis up the slope, then skied down, which made it a very athletic sport indeed. Secondly, Murchison shot Edwards while he was skiing down, which is why he went over the cliff instead of stopping: he was already dead. Thirdly, I don't think J.B. thought of Murchison as the killer, he didn't recognise him since in the dream the killer is face-less. He made himself responsible for Edwards' s death because of the whole guilt-complex thing, and took his place to try to escape from that guilt. Murchison must have had a big shock when he saw J.B. turn up at the clinic, and he chose not to say anything and play along, which was dangerous since he had to pretend he had never met the real Edwards. When he let slip out that he did know him, Bergam knew him for the real killer.

Lagartija Nick is no dumb show...



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OK. Let's see if I can explain it from my point of view.

(Spoilers for y'all who haven't seen the movie.)




John was burned in the war (he was a medic and received a medical discharge), but that accident started awakening feelings of guilt about killing his brother. So, he went to see Dr. Edwards. The first time John met Dr. Edwards was when they met for lunch at the 21 Club. It was there that Dr. Murchison confronted Dr. Edwards about possibly cheating him out of Green Manors (If you didn't notice, Dr. Murchison was crazy.) As part of John's treatment, Dr. Edwards took him skiing. John witnessed the shooting of Dr. Edwards. He was shot before he went over the cliff. This is seen in the dream when the faceless man steps behind the chimney and dropped a small wheel (it represented the gun--the revolver. Although, I really don't get how a wheel naturally represents a gun. Oh well.)

Does this help?

Kat

Intercourse the Penguin!

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The wheel represents a gun because of the gun's revolving barrel.

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The wheel...It's an unconcious verbal/visual pun in his dream. The gun was a "revolver"; a wheel rotates and so technically is also a "revolver." It is supposed to represent the free-association of dream images.

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If John went to Dr.Edwards for treatment and not Dr.Murchison, how did Murchison know about John's history? Further after the death of Dr.Edwards, if John is sane enough to pose as Dr.Edwards and go to Green Manor, how come he cannot remember the face of the killer with the gun or the face of person who confronted Dr.Edwards in the 21 Club? Add this to the surrealistic gibberish of Salvador Dali and this makes Hitchcock the Classic Spin Doctor - something similar to Richard Burton in 'Where Eagles Dare'. Everybody acknowledge it to be a great movie and nobody has fully understood it.

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I don't know the answer to all your questions, but JB has amnesia. That's why he doesn't remember the face of the killer. Plus, Dr. Murchison was smart enough and experienced enough to recognize amnesia and a guilt complex when he saw it. Added to the fact that JB is calling himself "Dr. Edwardes" and Dr. Murchison knows that he's not. I'm sorry if those are pat answers, but that's how the movie is set up.

If you break down most Hitchcock movies, there are plot holes in all of them. You pointed out several in "Spellbound," but most have plot holes. In fact, all movies have some sort of plot hole. This is still a great movie and Hitchcock is one of the best directors of all time. Even if his movies have plot holes.

Kat

When was the last time you heard these exact words: You are the sunshine of my life?

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In his dream I always wondered what it meant that (faceless) Dr. M. was dropping the wheel. I can see that it´s a symbol for a revolver, but Dr.M. didn´t drop it as we learn at the end. Maybe it´s not that important - I was just wondering.



"You shouldn't keep souvenirs of a killing. You shouldn't have been that sentimental."

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I assume he either dropped his arm to his side, or dropped the gun and retrieved it. I did get the wheel was the gun before she said so although not earlier than she would have realized it.

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Dr. Murchison didn't need to know John would assume Dr. Edwards identity. In fact, John's assumption of Dr. Edward's identity worked against Dr. Murchison.

John's burn is from a plane crash. Because of the crash, he meets Dr. Edwards. As part of John's therapy, Dr. Edwards suggests John join him in a skiing trip in Gabriel Valley. But first, Dr. Edwards and John have lunch at the 21 Club.

At the 21 Club, Dr. Murchison accused the real Dr. Edwards of stealing his job (in John's presence). Murchison then follows Edwards to Gabriel Valley and waits for Edwards on the slope near a cliff. Murchison shoots Edwards, who continues his downward momentum and skis off the cliff. By shooting Edwards, Murchison gets rid of his replacement -- someone Murchison believed stole his job.

John is several feet behind Edwards and witnesses the event. John may be neurotic but he is not insane. Because of his guilt complex from his tragic past, Edwards' death shocks John into losing his memory. Because his psyche cannot accept Edwards is dead and because he feels irrationally responsible, John assumes Edwards' identity (Edwards cannot be dead because I [John] am Edwards). John is not posing. He believes he is Edwards.

Imagine Dr. Murchison's surprise when John appears at Green Manor as Edwards. He believes he has murdered his replacement, and a replacement still shows up. If he "outs" John, Murchison admits having met Edwards, and risks John remembering the argument at the 21 Club. If you murdered someone, would you want people remembering you had an argument with the victim before his death?

Constance's observation of John's burn starts the ball rolling in the recovery of his memory.

The Salvador Dali arrangement added to the plot. It gave enough of what happened away for Constance to solve a portion of what happened, but did not explain how Edwards was shot or who shot Edwards. Besides, dreams are not always linear or even coherent.

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It's all clearly explained in the movie.

John and Dr. Edwards were eating lunch together at the 21 Club. Dr. Murchison, who had been going through recent psychiatric troubles, knew Dr. Edwards was going to replace him at the hospital and picked a fight with him at the club. Afterward Dr. Murchison followed John and Dr. Edwards to the ski resort, where Murchison shot Edwards. Edwards' dead body slid off the cliff.

John, who had accidentally killed his brother by sliding down a bannister and knocking him into an spiked gate, flashed back to this previous trauma and thought he was responsible for the murder. Murchison was acting psychotically and irrationally. He didn't need to know about John's complex; it was just a lucky break for him.

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>>Murchison was acting psychotically and irrationally. He didn't need to know about John's complex; it was just a lucky break for him.

It would indeed be irrational for John's complex not to be part of Murchison's scheme. He otherwise must have figured a "sane" John would give eye witness to police about the murder and they would figure out about the recent dispute between Murchison and Edwards at club 21 and would be after Murchison soon.
An irrational murder however doesn't tie in with what happened in the hit's aftermath. Why is Murchison returning to his job as if nothing has happened. Shouldn't he be aware of the fact that police would be coming for him any time - again under the assumption John's complex was dispensable/unknown to Murchison. Is this really a valid assumption?


Life is pain! Anyone who says different is trying to sell you something.

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"If John went to Dr.Edwards for treatment and not Dr.Murchison, how did Murchison know about John's history? Further after the death of Dr.Edwards, if John is sane enough to pose as Dr.Edwards and go to Green Manor, how come he cannot remember the face of the killer with the gun or the face of person who confronted Dr.Edwards in the 21 Club? Add this to the surrealistic gibberish of Salvador Dali and this makes Hitchcock the Classic Spin Doctor - something similar to Richard Burton in 'Where Eagles Dare'. Everybody acknowledge it to be a great movie and nobody has fully understood it. "



Seemingly the only one who hasn't fully understood it is you.

Honestly, did you even watch this? The killing and the fall over the cliff triggers the memory of killing of his brother, the amnesia, and the subsequent taking over of Edwards personality. So obviously with amnesia he cannot remember the face of the real killer. Hence the blank face of the proprietor in the dream. Considering it by 1945 standards the Dali dream sequence is one the most hauntingly brilliant in film and still highly regarded. I wasnt aware Hitchcock was attempting to be a psychologist just by making a film, if one wants to take is as any more than that, then good luck to 'em.

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JB was not involved in the killing. He and Dr. Edwardes were skiing in Gabriel Lake. Dr. Murchison could have hidden somewhere behind the two, maybe on a tree, and from there he shot Dr. Edwardes. Then, as the story goes, Dr. Edwardes fell into the cliff. The deeply disturbed JB, who was then a patient of Dr. Edawrades, could have then relapsed into an extreme repression, or more commonly known as amnesia. He could have acquired this at some accident on that place. When he awoke, his guilt complex has taken over and he believed that he killed Dr. Edwardes. However, due to his medicine background, he decided to keep Dr. Edwardes alive in his mind and pretended to be him, with the other details of the crime temporarily repressed in him.

All right Mr. de Mille, I'm ready for my close-up...
Regards, THE GODFATHER

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It is all too obvious. Personally, when I saw Kim Novak attired differently in the movie, I thought that she was another woman. It was just after she was seen by Scott Ferguson in the same angle that he saw Madeleine that I knew that Madeleine and the girl were one. It could have been easier to spot for you, but not for others.

All right Mr. de Mille, I'm ready for my close-up...
Regards, THE GODFATHER

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Gregory Peck is hot.

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