What's the point of Herb - Shadow of a Doubt (1943) Discussion

[–] franzkabuki 14 years ago

Mainly, to annoy the viewer - that Cronin guy was only tolerable in older age, like in The Parallax View.

Also, there´s this somewhat typically Hitchcockian "titillation" going; just like in Strangers On A Train folks keep cheerfully chatting about methods of murder while the danger is, in fact, right there in the house. Not that it works or anything as it cheapens both films a great deal.

"facts are stupid things" - Ronald Reagan

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[–] jbs016 11 years ago

Your Ronald Reagan quote is incorrect. He said, "Facts are STUBBORN things."

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[–] liscarkat (19385) 7 years ago

franzkabuki--If you're still around, you should remove that Reagan quote postscript from your posts. It makes you look ignorant. If you don't like Reagan, and you feel the need to advertise it to everyone every time you write something, you'd be better off finding something he said, in context, that actually makes him look bad. Well, good luck with that, but as long as you keep using the quote you're using, out of context, you're just fooling yourself and making yourself look like a fool.

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[–] Druff (1841) 4 years ago

John Adams said "Facts are stubborn things." Reagan said "Facts are stupid things..." Because he was an idiot.

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[–] nutsberryfarm 10 years ago

for gravitas.

🌴🌴🌴🌴🌴🌴🌴🌴🌴

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[–] Callahan7 (1202) 2 years ago

Your low quality post is not tolerable in any age.

Hume Cronyn was a wonderful actor. Young or old. 4 years after this was made he played a Machiavellian prison guard in Brute Force. A villainous role and he was very good.

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[–] AnaM31 14 years ago

I think it was to create an atmosphere of irony--their fascination with murder was pointless because they had a live-in murderer down the hall. Personally, I thought it was perfect, but I guess it fell flat for a lot of viewers because Herb and the father were never aware of it.

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[–] MariannIAm (22) 5 years ago

I loved it as well. I thought that was some of the best conversation going on in the film. They were fun. :)

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[–] yorktom58 14 years ago

I think they were just trying to appeal to the autistic market.

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[–] novastar_6 14 years ago

I liked them. I loved it when the father said 'we're not talking about murder, I'm talking about killing Herb and he's talking about killing me'.

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[–] Phillip Marlowe 14 years ago

that Cronin guy was only tolerable in older age, like in The Parallax View.

Au contraire. I love Cronin here and in other films of this era. He's even better in The Postman Always Rings Twice (in fact, he's about the only thing I do like here; although I love film noir, I just can't make myself like this film much.) He's also great as a sadistic prison guard in Brute Force.

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[–] eric-1501 12 years ago

Yeah! Cronin was GREAT in The Postman Always Rings Twice. Slimy and benevolent
in the same sentence.

"Could be worse."
"Howwww?"
"Could be raining."

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[–] PoppyTransfusion 13 years ago

I think it served two purposes. A comedic one; Hitchcock exercising his macabre sense of humour once more. Also it's deeply ironic as the two men are discussing ways to murder without being caught and often in front of a murderer who has been successful at evading capture after the deed.

I found their conversations hilarious and loved this as a feature in the film. It seemed to me a way of poking fun at the normality of the family too where the father's favourite past time is ruminating on a perfect murder.

I'm a fountain of blood
In the shape of a girl

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[–] novastar_6 13 years ago

Well it makes perfect sense to me, I'd rather discuss murder at the dinner table too instead of the boring typical stuff like how was your day, what did YOU do today, etc.

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[–] ilpohirvonen 12 years ago

I absolutely loved the character. He was the typical awkward character who just pops in every family event because he has no family of his own. Somehow he reminded me of myself, haha. On the other hand, he enchances the ironic aspect of the film and I don't think it suffers from not having redeemed -- the fact that they never realize a murderer lived under the same roof. I think they don't merely represent Hitchcock's ironic approach to the American idyll but also two men who have went through the process of moral growth. They have accepted their darker side whereas Charlie the girl hasn't.

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[–] Karantino 12 years ago

Comic relief.

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[–] rexshard93 12 years ago

The purpose of Herbie Hawkins is he is obsessed about the subject of Murder just like Hitchcock. Hitchcock put lots of personal elements in this film. His obsession with the subject of murder ended up saving Young Charlie's life.

Like Hitchcock, Herbie is also mother dominated.

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[–] Karantino 12 years ago

I don't know; the things I've learned about Hitchcock over the years have me conflicted about whether he would or wouldn't "insert" himself into his films save for the cameos. I remember watching an interview (which may be on the Hitchcock collection that was recently released) where someone who worked with Hitchcock said that he had such a great imagination that he didn't have to use his own life to supplement his films. At the same time, there are little things, like naming the mother Emma, just like Hitchcock's mother.

Nevertheless, I'm still not sure that Hitchcock would alter a character (Herb) that someone else had written just for the purpose of mirroring himself.

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[–] rexshard93 12 years ago

Alfred Hitchcock and his wife Alma Reville worked on the scripts of every Hitchcock film. Alfred Hitchcock worked with Thornton Wilder and later with Sally Benson in the scripting process of this film. Alfred Hitchcock deliberately added symbolisms in the script and in the film. Hitchcock talked about this when he talked to Truffaut in Hitchcock/Truffaut Interview.

Let me give you couple of examples other than Herbie Hawkins.

Hitchcock's middle name is Joseph. Joseph Newton is the father of the family. There are 3 children in the Newton family. Like Roger, Alfred Hitchcock was the third and the youngest in his family. Ann Newton reads the book of Ivanhoe. Alfred Hitchcock knew the story of Ivanhoe by heart when he was young. Uncle Charlie's bicycle accident happened to Hitchcock when he was young.

Young Charlie drove the car in the family. Hitchcock's wife Alma Reville loved driving. Like Joseph Newton, Hitchcock refuses to drive the car.

Another symbolism in this film is where Hitchcock, Thornton Wilder, and Alma Reville added vampire references throughout the film to provide a symbolic meaning of Uncle Charlie and his inner self.

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[–] Karantino 12 years ago

I'm not claiming to be a Hitchcock expert, but I am aware of everything written in your post (a lot of it is in the trivia section as well--did you contribute to it?). That's why I mentioned the bit about the mother being called Emma. I can see Hitchcock adding "surface" characterization, but I'm still not convinced he would model a character too much on himself. I could be wrong, though; it's been years since I've read his biographies.

Also, I was under the impression that Alma mainly worked on the continuity of the screenplays.

I'm not sure of the point of your last paragraph. Yes, there are references to Uncle Charlie as a vampire (rising when the shades are drawn, the dialogue about the same blood, etc.), but how does that relate to this topic?

Anyway, do you really disagree that the Herb, and his exchanges with the father, were meant--at least in part--as comic relief? I'm sure you know Hitchcock had a great sense of humor.

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[–] rexshard93 12 years ago

Before I go into the subject of Vampire references, let's go into Herbie Hawkins.

I do agree with you that one of the purposes of Herbie's exchanges with father has to do with Hitchcock's dark humor. But the other purpose was to show Herbie's obsession with the subject of murder. We later see how his obsession with the subject of murder drove him to save Young Charlie from her death.

With the subject of Vampire references, I was trying to point out that Hitchcock and Alma Reville were very precise in development of each scene in the script. Each Scene was done with a purpose. They also added symbolisms to serve this purpose. I agree that Alma Reville was a continuity writer. But she was also a brilliant critic in checking if there is any flaw during the development of each scene. Alfred Hitchcock also called Alma Reville "A Constant Collaborator."

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[–] jreedha 12 years ago

It's Shakespearean comic relief - think the grave digger in Hamlet.

Also it serves to underscore the banality and conformity of small town life. The two "murderous" men were playing at mayhem within their safe and sheltered lives. They were oblivious to genuine evil, even when it sat across the table. They were like cub scouts telling ghost stories in the safety of a backyard tent. The world outside is a "cruel sty" as Uncle says, but inside the little bubble, horror is only a game.

There's a case to be made that there's something to that in life today. Horror & fear are everywhere, but when safe and fed many seek the thrill of pretend horror in movies (like Shadow) or even roller coasters. It's only fun when one has the luxury of a full stomach and warm bed - and can reasonably depend on security and safety. But Hitch reminds us - we are never really safe - not safe at all.

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[–] PopperTheKungFu-Dragon 11 years ago

Agree with everything jreedha said. Well said.

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[–] Petronius Arbiter II 11 years ago

Also it serves to underscore the banality and conformity of small town life. The two "murderous" men were playing at mayhem within their safe and sheltered lives. They were oblivious to genuine evil, even when it sat across the table.

^This.

"I don't deduce, I observe."

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[–] ecarle (14979) 3 years ago

Also it serves to underscore the banality and conformity of small town life. The two "murderous" men were playing at mayhem within their safe and sheltered lives. They were oblivious to genuine evil, even when it sat across the table. They were like cub scouts telling ghost stories in the safety of a backyard tent.

--

"Cub scouts" -- more boys than men. The movie makes the point that Young Charlie's father is rather grandfathely and ineffectual. Uncle Charlie eventually tells Young Charlie: "You're the real head of this household." That Uncle Charlie's sister truly loves him to the point of something sexual suggests that the sister no longer has sexual feelings for her husband at all (they've had three kids, its over.) Herbie hasn't even married or fathered a family.

But the key thing is that, eventually, YOUNG Charlie starts yelling at her father and Herbie at the dinner table and accuses them of being heartless in their fake murder planning. This is a forties movie that is, perhaps, a bit too "on the nose" at times -- Young Charlie KNOWS that a real killer is at the table, she makes the point visibly and angrily.

Actor Hume Cronyn had a nice story about the filming of this scene. Herbie rises from the table and backs up as Young Charlie yells at him. But Cronyn kept missing his mark, positioned wrong in the frame....his head above the shot line. Hitchcock cautioned him, "Please your marks, Hume...otherwise this scene will be played by an actor without a head."

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