It has to be out there somewhere, there was the supposed Brazilian copy which hasn't turned up. It must be sitting in someone's attic and they don't even realize it. Maybe someone could follow Welles' notes and re-shoot the missing scenes using look-alikes, it may not be perfect but it could work.
Last Movie Seen: The Leopard 9/10
According to the records, Welles was sent "14 reels" and "10 reels" of AMBERSONS footage while he was in Brazil shooting IT'S ALL TRUE. The "14 reels" corresponds to the 131 min. cut that Robert Wise completed in Welles' absence according to his instructions; the "10 reels" represented alternate takes and alternate sequence editing that either Wise or Welles were considering. All 24 reels of film were reported as "destroyed" by the Brazil office of RKO no later than Dec. 1944.
It would be nice to think they really weren't, but...
You are now, technically, an Ambersons Freak. All of us who are members of this distinguished society have fantasized somewhat along these lines: collected stills of the lost scenes; devised what we like to think are entirely feasible ways to resuscitate them; to rerecord the script; to animate or restage or CGI those scenes back to life; to make the lost return, the dead to breathe and who knows what else or how...
Welcome to the club. Have an olive. Green things they are, something like a hard plum...
Call me Ishmael...
Heh, I've never been a part of a club before, so I guess I should be honored.
In all honesty, I don't see why re-filming the scenes with Welles' notes couldn't be done as long as the right person was helming the project. I don't think it would cost much to do something like that, and it's not like people won't go to see it.
Sadly, it appears that the original film is permanently gone. Having seen the TCM restoration of Greed, I would like to see something along similar lines done with Ambersons, perhaps by Criterion, with stills and pans across the stills while actors read the script in voice-over while imitating the voices of the original actors. The script and cutting continuity exist and the film could be reassembled to follow it. And Herrmann's complete film score has been recorded and his music could be put back. But as someone suggested, CGI could work, too.
I got A&E Magnificent Ambersons with thought of trying to reconstruct Ambersons for myself. However, I would say it is loosely based on Welles' script, not a new filming of it and gave up the thought after watching it.
"I got A&E Magnificent Ambersons with thought of trying to reconstruct Ambersons for myself. However, I would say it is loosely based on Welles' script, not a new filming of it and gave up the thought after watching it".
That A & E production is, unfortunately, a complete waste of time. I'm not even sure it could be called "loosely based" on Welles' original screenplay as so much had been altered or added. Interestingly, Madeleine Stowe went on record saying how disappointed she was with the production. For those who think it was an approximation of what Welles was going for...forget about it!
I think a reconstruction is the best way to go, in the hands of the right director, say Martin Scorsese, following Welles' notes we could get something close. The problem is finding actor's who could morph into the roles. Or a Greed-like restoration works as well, but the truncated version of Greed is different from TMA. At least the story and framework of von Stroheim's vision is there. But with Welles movement and the flow of the camera are so integral, a Greed-like restoration would look awkward. Maybe as we approach the 100th anniversary of Welles' birth we'll start seeing a renewed interest in the film, and hopefully his other ones too. Chimes at Midnight is in desperate need of restoration.
share"Chimes at Midnight is in desperate need of restoration."
Actually, I'd say that CHIMES AT MIDNIGHT is simply in desperate need of a proper release! The prints I've seen at retrospectives were fine and there was a French DVD issue out a few years back that looked fantastic. Unfortunately, feuding heirs of the original producers/moneymen have kept this classic out of circulation.
I might say that someone contributing to this very thread has done a very creditable job of reconstructing THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS along the lines discussed, giving a poignant insight into what might have been!
[Macresarf1]
I'm not sure how detailed Welles' notes are, but maybe a proper remake is in order following Welles' notes and screenplay to a T.
shareAs I'm sure has been pointed out somewhere here, several years ago, a complete remake was undertaken for TV, based on one of Welles' drafts, but most critics found it quite unsatisfactory. The problem was that the film which Welles actually shot contained some of his typical last minute improvisations, including the lamented lost ending in "the old folks home." That sequence was not in the original novel, nor has it ever been found. As MagAmberson has told us, that footage was destroyed in Hollywood and in Rio, by order of the new RKO regime.
Perhaps, MagAmberson would comment on the subject of remakes and reconstructions of THE MAGNIFICENT AMBERSONS, as he has kindly done in the past.
Macresarf1
Despite the fact that Welles is the only listed screenwriter for the A & E remake, that screenplay was not even remotely close to any of his drafts (and crediting him with it is a bigger insult than the mutilation of his original film in my opinion). Ironically, the only idea of Welles' that made it into the TV movie was the ending where Eugene recites the letter he has written to the deceased Isabel...an ending that Welles himself threw away prior to shooting his original film!
A "proper" remake could certainly be done, simply by following the March 12th, 1942 cutting continuity of Welles' initial 131 min. edit. However, I imagine finding the funding to take on such a remake would be difficult. Despite the somewhat legendary nature of the 1942 original, there can't be much of a market for this kind of period film. A & E managed to pull the financing together a decade back, but, frankly, they blew their opportunity to do it right.
Thanks for your comments everyone, it would appear that any hope of finding a copy of the original cut are gone by now. At this point, if you take the best parts of the original film, and the best parts of the A & E production, you have the best you are going to get. Both had problems...but together they achieve resolution...will have more.
RSGRE
I don't think it's just the funding that's difficult, but it can't just be a remake. It needs to be as if Welles is directing by proxy from beyond the grave. I know that sounds crazy, but the film needs to be under a director who understands Welles' vision.
shareGood luck ZGDK, A & E gave it their best shot and came up a little short. The trouble in the end is that it is just a rather dry nostalgic period piece about wayward youth and ultimate redemption, suitably mostly for older folks (parents especially) looking back. Take the best parts of both and settle for that. Despite what many Welles fans want to believe, not all of his film was that good. Parts of the A & E version were better, like the last walk in town with George & Lucy and the European tour. Welles had that wonderful prologue which A & E skipped altogether, but insisted on some rather strange camera work that became tedious instead of inventive. Time marches on....
RSGRE
"...suitably mostly for older folks (parents especially) looking back."- RSGRE
So this is why I fell in love with AMBERSONS when I was 14 years old?
On the surface, the story is melodramatic, but the theme of how the industrialization of the town alters both the character of the town and the town's populace is a profound one. The tragedy of the original film's re-editing is that this theme was reduced to a glimmer of what it should have been. Now I can only imagine how Anne Baxter read the cut line "I never seem to be living in the present moment...I'm always looking forward to something...things that will happen when I'm older". What an incredible existentialist line of dialogue; it tells us much of her character and it's a line that should resonate with anyone who has spent a few years on this planet. The released version of Welles' film still contains many moments like this, but the initial edit contained many more. The A & E version may have attempted to flesh out the plot more fully, but it over-emphasized the melodramatic aspects of the story and ignored many of the grace notes that Welles brought to his telling.
Thanks Mag, but since the original cut is lost, we will never know for sure. Read the book, take both versions in, and settle for that. Despite the virtues you mention, it turns out to be a story of limited appeal, for the few who want to really notice. And time marches on...
RSGRE
You are correct, RSGRE, that the story/film is of limited appeal - it was not popular in '42 and it probably wouldn't be popular now...
...of course, popularity is not synonymous with greatness.
This movie drives me crazy. The movie always seemed incomplete to me. I often imagine what the cut scenes were like. I can't stand that RKO destroyed the movie.
share"...of course, popularity is not synonymous with greatness."
But it is synonymous with returns.
They let Welles do TMA because they thought they'd get their money's worth back with the more marketable Journey Into Fear.
It would be more difficult now as they aren't placating a growing talent. it would have to be for a very tight budget to get it done now.
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Even if you hate Uwe Boll, give Postal a try, be offended or entertained.
"..suitably mostly for older folks (parents especially) looking back."
No, I was probably 16 when I saw this film and loved it immediately! :)
Martha
Austin, Texas
Could somebody get hold of the original script and remake it with lookalike,as far as possible, actors? And what do people think happened after then end of the film?
shareScorsese talked about doing a remake years ago that stuck with Welles' original vision, but the actual remake was done by Alfonso Arau as a A&E two-night mini-series. Purportedly based on Welles' original shooting script (it wasn't), the A&E version was a mess which captured little of Tarkington's tone and none of Welles's.
Are you asking how the lives of the characters continued on after the novel and film ends? I believe Eugene continues his position as a wealthy industrialist who probably has a string of affairs with younger women, but doesn't remarry. George and Lucy marry and George is given a board position in the Morgan Motors corporation. While grateful, George still holds reservations that Eugene is responsible for he and his wife's well-being which puts a strain on George's relationship with both of them. Fanny continues being a neurotic spinster who maintains a room at the boarding house and refuses to discuss her past. The city grows more polluted and run-down and the suburbs begin extending into what were once rural environs. Morgan Motors eventually moves its headquarters to one of these suburbs and is taken over by a German or Japanese car company.
Hope springs eternal.
The Magnificent Ambersons ranks with the 1954 A Star is Born and Billy Wilder's The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes (1970) as films that were excessively cut by the studio prior to release and of which rumors have always persisted that "the uncut version is out there somewhere".
Sure, it would be nice but I'm not holding my breath.
"By the way, don't touch the figs."
Thanks for your comments dizexpat. I have the DVD of "The Private Life of Sherlock Holmes" and the extra features include stills and narration of the missing scenes. Not as good as I expected, turned out to be a rather micro view of Holmes adventures...kind of flat and boring. Even good directors miss the mark sometimes. If we could only see the original cut of TMA.....grrrrr !!!!
RSGRE
I hope they can locate it throughout the film I felt like some scenes were missing and incoherent. However the film was still enjoyable even after finding out it was heavily edited
shareThis drives me insane thinking about it. I sincerely hope that, somewhere out there, there is a copy of it.
Do we know for certain that they are absolutely no prints left, or is it just, after much searching, nothing has come up?
There are studio records notating the destruction of the excised footage and original prints/negatives. The footage that was sent to Welles in Brazil during editing (specifically, a 14 reel version which corresponds to the 131 min. cut documented in the existing cutting continuity along with another 10 reels of alternate edits) was reportedly destroyed by RKO's Brazil office in Dec. 1944. The only hope is that the memos/documentation are wrong and someone held onto the footage.
If a film actually sees some kind of release, then there is a much greater chance that a print will show up. But the only version of AMBERSONS to be released was the 88 min. cut we have now, so there's not much chance anything else will be uncovered. Interestingly, an alternate studio cut of JOURNEY INTO FEAR (the film Welles was producing around the same time as AMBERSONS) has survived and this version was only released for about two-to-three weeks before being recalled by RKO. Still, prints were shipped and one never made it back to the studio.
"destruction of the excised footage and original prints/negatives."
This is so extreme, so hostile, maybe even amoral. To destroy it... It's just too much. Overkill.
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http://mulhollandcinelog.wordpress.com/
As shrewd as Welles was, I can't imagine why he would not keep a complete version of his masterpiece for his own library...particularly knowing how Hollywood operates by this time in his career. If that were the case, there would be no "records" of it being in existence, obviously. I'm counting on Rebecca Welles having a copy of it somewhere.
shareCan you imagine trying to pack 14 (or 24) reels of 35mm film in your luggage as you move around through South America? It simply wasn't practical (or legal) for Welles to hold on to those reels and, at that time, he wasn't aware that of all the extant deleted footage would be destroyed. He did hold onto dozens of frame enlargements taken from the cut material, many of which can now be viewed in various publications and at libraries in Bloomington, IN and Ann Arbor, MI.
shareI don't think it's out there because Welles never cut it. He was out of town. It's a myth.
shareWhile Welles wasn't present in the editing room for the majority of post-production (he spent three days with editor Robert Wise outlining a very rough assembly before leaving for Brazil), he had final say on the editing of the film up until the first previews. What could be called the "initial fine edit" (131 minutes in length) was completed under his guidance and a 35mm copy of this cut was shipped to him in Rio. Reportedly, those reels were destroyed by RKO's Brazil Office sometime after the revised film was released, but there is a slim chance the reels were archived and/or forgotten about.
shareNo. I don't suspect a print of one of the longer preview versions of the film still exist. It's a shame that those scenes were lost, though we are still left with a great film.
shareGood god, why would you want to add MORE to this turgid, overwrought soap opera?!?!
share