MovieChat Forums > Casablanca (1943) Discussion > Help with line meaning

Help with line meaning

posted 8 years ago by aciolino
19 replies | jump to latest

On two occasions, Claude Rains (Captain Renault) uses the word "precedent," and I believe he is using it mistakenly, which is hard for me to believe because he is, after all, Claude Rains. Yet, it all rings in my ears as a misuse of the word.

First time: "Oh, a precedent is being broken." Shouldn't it be, "A custom (or tradition) is being broken." Or, "A precedent is set!" Because Rick is doing something against his own policy, that is sitting with guests.

Similarly, later on when Rick takes the bill, 'Another precedent gone."

Anyone??

Thanks.

[–] jstang411 8 years ago

Even if you have to take as a given that a French-speaking person knew the word......"precedent" was used exactly as intended.

First time was Rick sitting with a customer and 2nd was him paying for a check. From the movie, both were new (except for maybe with Yvonne at the bar sometime before). Which goes both to breaking an old one and a sarcastic point out on a new one (even if still not set).

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

Um. . .maybe. . . not fully convinced, however. Thanks.

[–] jstang411 8 years ago

Not sure about the other time the word is used, but you can judge for yourself on the other one.

Rick: Hello, Ilsa.
Ilsa: Hello, Rick.
Captain Renault: Oh, you've already met Rick, mademoiselle? Then perhaps you also.
Ilsa: This is Mr. Laszlo.
Victor: One hears a great deal about Rick in Casablanca.
Rick: And about Victor Laszlo everywhere.
Victor: Won't you join us for a drink?
Captain Renault: Rick never.
Rick: Thanks, I will.
Renault: Well a precedent is being broken.

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

Thanks.

Still, to my ear, it doesn't work. Just sounds wrong, although I understand the concept that there had been a "precedent."

[–] jstang411 8 years ago

And here is the 2nd use.....consistent at least.

Waiter: Your check, sir.
Rick: No, it's my party.
Renault: Another precedent gone. This has been a very interesting evening.

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

Well, yes, thank you, I know the context. Again, seems misused. It would read/sound so much better if he had said, "Another precedent is set!"

[–] pontevedro 8 years ago

He would only be setting a precedent if it turned out that he now started drinking with customers. A precedent is not a one time occurrence but something that is followed over time. Various dictionaries list pattern, model and practice as synonyms.

IMHO, Renault is using the word correctly.

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

Yes, good points, and I did understand that meaning and use of the word. I will have to concede that my reading of the line could be wrong.

Although it still SOUNDS WRONG to me!!

[–] greenleafie 8 years ago

Yes, the word was being misused. I think the intention was to deliberately portray Renault as a bit of a phony- superficially sophisticated on the surface, but underneath, a little crude and vulgar, which indeed he was. I feel certain Rains, as an actor, understood this, and played it with aplomb. Everything about Renault was rather two-faced- until the end of the show. It seems perfectly natural he should have a few grammatical foibles. Unlike Laszlo, he was not a "true" gentleman. Louis is my favorite character.

[–] jstang411 8 years ago

I still don't get how it was misused? Renault says "Well a precedent is being broken" and "Another precedent gone."

To me at least it would be different if he said one had been set.

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

greenleafie,

I'm gratified someone else thinks the word was used incorrectly. Thank you.

I cannot agree with your explanation, though, but it is interesting!

[–] Doghouse-6 8 years ago

Technically, I'm with jstang on this: I don't believe the usage is necessarily "incorrect," but I'd agree that it might not have been the most elegant word choice.

Perhaps the reason it sounds wrong to your ear involves uncommon syntax: "Well a precedent is being broken;" "Another precedent gone." I'm certainly more accustomed to hearing a phrase like, "a break with precedent" rather than a precedent being referred to as "broken" or "gone."

Just the same, it gets the point across.

You might find this interesting; in the play upon which the screenplay's based, Everybody Comes To Rick's, when Rick first joins them, Renault (Rinaldo in the play) says, "Madame, you have just made history." Later, though, when Rick takes the check, the line is almost identical to that in the film: "Another precedent broken. This has been a most interesting evening."

So, for the original idea to use the word, put it down to playwrights Murray Burnett and Joan Alison.

Poe! You are...avenged!

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

Thanks so much. That was interesting and informative!

[–] SevernSarge 8 years ago

Per The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, New College Edition, "Precedent" is a noun, with both "custom" and "convention" listed as synonyms.

With this in mind, saying that a precedent is gone or broken is perfectly good usage.

Cheers!

_______________________
What in the wide, wide world of sports is a-goin' on here?

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

Yes, that that the line is grammatically correct, yes, that I've understood all along. But I don't think it makes sense in this context. It just sounds wrong.

[–] 8 years ago

[deleted]

[–] aciolino 8 years ago

Drugs worn off, eh?

[–] benth04 8 years ago

Whatever the manus might say, Claude Rains may use his original French, too verbatim translated into English
The word precedent means, at least in most European courts:
Precedent or prejudice is a legal expression of a court take into account previous and similar sentences in a given case and lets these play into the decision of the case. If a case is a precedent, it will therefore affect the future state of affairs.
So a precedent may be broken in French, maybe not in American-English

[–] pontevedro 8 years ago

Precedent means the same thing in American courts as well. We probably got it from the French.