>>>Wow, thanks for posting that ffeff! That was wonderful to read.
Yeah, she beat me to that - fortunately I read that far before going off to find the text online.
Actually, despite what I said earlier, you likely wouldn't have any trouble finding a copy of Felix Salten's book. I'm pretty sure it's easily available in the US - though utterly out of print in Britain. Mind you, with the internet and Amazon etc, this matters a whole lot less these days of course.
I have to make a confession here, which is that I haven't actually seen Bambi properly, and I went through a phase some years ago of sneering at the idea of it - rather in the manner of certain people prejudicially contemptuous of remakes and adaptations that I now thoroughly despise. At the time, as somebody who loved the book (or at least Whitaker Chambers' 'English Remake' of the Austrian novel) I had serious concerns about the material being handled by Disney. Of course I was being selective in my view of Disney, and slightly alarmed by what I'd seen of the coochy-coo stuff with Thumper and Flower etc etc.
I'm older and wiser, and now planning to get the DVD asap - not least because I saw the new Blue Ray playing in an HMV the other night and was seriously impressed by the movement of the Deer - just the images struck me as having great fidelity to the animals being depicted. Although Salten's novel can be seen as anthropomorphic he's actually very good at using the conceit of talking animals to try and convey a non-human perspective on the world, and so tries very hard to be like a wildlife documentary.
I should warn you, though - if you think that Bambi has harrowing moments, there are moments in the book that are positively apocalyptic. Salten's world is beautiful, full of life, but also full of death and cruelty. In retrospect the sense of persecution and danger in the book is interesting when you realise that Salten was actually Saltzman, an Austrian Jew writing in a time when persecution was far from on the wane for people like himself.
Now, I confess to knowing almost nothing of the Bambi sequel, but perhaps it's worth mentioning that Salten wrote several novels featuring Bambi. There is a direct sequel, 'Bambi's Children', which is far less stark and beautiful than the first novel (written about ten years after) and thus much more suitable for kids - and possibly better for adaptation.
Bambi makes guest appearances in a number of other stories, though. 'Fifteen Rabbits' actually takes place at the same time as Bambi, so the rabbit characters witness some of the events of that novel - such as one of the major deaths of a deer character (mostly implicit in 'Bambi', wildly explicit in 'Fifteen Rabbits'). Fifteen Rabbits is actually at least as harsh and poetic as Bambi, taking an aggressively realistic approach to life for the rabbit characters - which is to say, if you start the year with fifteen baby wild rabbits, how many do you think will be alive in a year's time? Actually, Jaze, it's like that TV series 'Holocaust'. Starts with a wedding, ends with a lone survivor. Well, almost. Either way, Fifteen Rabbits is not a book I'd give to kids in a hurry. Baby Rabbit Death by having eyes stabbed out by crows is something that isn't necessarily obligatory in any childhood.
Anyway, I'm sure I've been selling Salten's books as a huge bundle of laughs. But seriously, I'd advocate anybody giving 'Bambi' a try, because it's criminally under-recognised, and all-too-often forgotten in the shadow of its animated offspring.
>>>if it had been fully animated and performed by professional actors, maybe I would've liked it more. That being said, I still think the scene is probably much more appropriate in the book than it would've been in the final film
Perhaps it would have belonged in a different version of the film? I mean, if they'd approached the tone of it in a different way? I haven't seen it, but it's difficult imagining the leaf scene working in most films, because its a particular conceit that is liable to work better on the page - or if you have strong narrating voice, perhaps.
>>>Also, I don't know if you saw my question earlier, but I'm curious, was some of the Bambi sequel taken from the book?
Hmm. Well, I just looked at the synopsis and it sounds like it was extrapolated from the broad shape of the book's second half. After his mother disappears, the book dwells on Bambi's first winter, his growth to maturity, and so on (including the Gobbo plotline that I won't mention in case it constitutes a spoiler) but the story is mainly about the development of his relationship with the Old Stag. Eventually, Bambi is shot and wounded, and the Old Stag guides him through the woods, shows him how to hide, how to conceal his path, how to lose his pursuer, what herbs to eat... and it's very much the last lesson the father has to teach his son - and it's only at the very end of this sequence that the stag confirms what the readers know; the old stag's last words in the book are something "goodbye my son". The stuff in the Bambi II synopsis about Bambi learning from his father, but also teaching him a few things, seems to stem partly from the relationship in the book, and partly from a hundred billion cheap sitcoms. I love you dad even though I can't always say it, etc etc.
Now, if we want to look at other Disney films that borrow from Bambi, there's always 'The Lion King'... Though that also borrows (inadvertently) from Hamlet, of course.
>>>I remember you saying you stalk combat from the LMI board. He's a good one to stalk
I prefer to think of it as 'subscribing'...
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AntoNEO
14 years ago
Actually, despite what I said earlier, you likely wouldn't have any trouble finding a copy of Felix Salten's book. I'm pretty sure it's easily available in the US - though utterly out of print in Britain. Mind you, with the internet and Amazon etc, this matters a whole lot less these days of course.
Well, after all this talk, I just might have to go find myself a copy. It's embarrassing how little I read these days, so it'd do me some good to pick up a fine piece of literature for fun again.
I'm older and wiser, and now planning to get the DVD asap - not least because I saw the new Blue Ray playing in an HMV the other night and was seriously impressed by the movement of the Deer - just the images struck me as having great fidelity to the animals being depicted.
The animation truly is quite stunning. I recently purchased the Blu-ray as well, and everything from the impressionistic backgrounds to the jaw-dropping character animation is worthy of frame-by-frame appreciation. While I won't deny that Bambi has cute cuddly animals (indeed, I think it may have been the film to start the trend), don't let that deter you from seeing it, as it really has so much more to offer. I can't comment on how it compares to the book of course, and it sounds like it's most likely a sparsely rendered version of the material (the leaf scene being a case in point), but whatever the case may be, I think it's very much worth checking out on its own terms.
Perhaps it would have belonged in a different version of the film? I mean, if they'd approached the tone of it in a different way?
I think that's definitely a possibility. The film version of Bambi is sparsely written (in dialogue terms), and the filmmakers usually opt for symbolism and impressionism in conveying their ideas rather than dialogue. The dialogue that IS there is relegated solely to the central characters of the film. These are the main reasons why I feel the leaf scene wouldn't have worked in dialogue form. That being said, a different take on the material could very well have resulted in that scene working just fine. However, as you so aptly put, it might invariably be a scene that is better suited to the written word.
Hmm. Well, I just looked at the synopsis and it sounds like it was extrapolated from the broad shape of the book's second half.
Interesting. That's pretty neat that the filmmakers saw fit to draw some more from the book. Yet another sign that, regardless of what one thinks of the final product, it wasn't the usual Disney sequel rush-job. As you mentioned, some of the father/son stuff felt a bit like warmed over leftovers to me, but I can't fault their intentions. It's funny you mention The Lion King, because I had never noticed the antecedent qualities of Bambi until I rewatched it just recently. The whole time I was thinking, "Wow, talk about a precursor to The Lion King!" Then, on the special features, I was happy to find the producer of The Lion King going on and on about how inspired they were by Bambi. I decided to watch Lion King again after that. It was my favorite Disney film growing up, and I still liked it quite a lot. Granted, its inspirations are a bit more obvious to me now (with regards to Hamlet, Bambi, and even the controversial Kimba the White Lion parallels), but I still find the mix of all those elements to be rather inspired and well-realized. It's always nice when we can come back to films we loved growing up and still find them to be of artistic value. After all, nostalgia is a powerful thing, but it can only take you so far.
P.S. Picking up a copy of LMI soon, Combat? I heard it just came out in the UK. I think you even get an extra 20-minute TV special on your disc. You'll have to let me know how it is. As for me, I've already given my Blu-ray copy many a spin in the last few months. The film only continues to reveal new layers and details for me to enjoy. Gotta love it! :-)
"I grew up watching TV and I turned out TV." - Homer Simpson
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combatreview
14 years ago
>>>I was happy to find the producer of The Lion King going on and on about how inspired they were by Bambi.
I have to say, I had no idea that the connection had been confirmed. I was going out with a girl in 1995 who was basically a massive fan of The Lion King, and when its video release was announced I had to put up with her going on about Hakuna Matata and impersonating Jewish Meerkats and so on. I was a little underwhelmed by the film, but it had things I definitely admired and I've come to appreciate the strong parts of the flm a lot. However, back then I was tutting and saying "Yeah, yeah, this is lifted from Bambi though isn't it?" I then shifted to a more tolerant position on the grounds that The Lion King was explicitly made to be generic, following Joseph Campbell's teachings about the structure of story... many stories are similar without there being deliberate intent. So I'm very interested to discover that Bambi was definitely an influence.
Actually, much good came from The Lion King. Girlfriend introduced me to the music of Hans Zimmer, and I got her to watch the Star Wars films based on James Earl Jones connection. Though I hadn't predicted that she would start to fancy Darth Vader in a disturbing, Freudian way (he reminded her of her dad).
>>>Granted, its inspirations are a bit more obvious to me now (with regards to Hamlet, Bambi, and even the controversial Kimba the White Lion parallels)
No mention of Hugo The Hippo?
In fact, I once sat in a lecture about an Old English narrative called 'Horne Child', which was notable for sharing components with Hamlet, and it was made very clear that the story of Hamlet is just such a fundamental expression of an ancient story that most things end up looking like Hamlet, one way or another. So, sure, The Lion King is very Hamlet - but I always figured that this was because they built the story on broad concepts. At the time I seem to remember them claiming it was the first Disney feature to not be based on an existing story, but built from scratch.
Actually, one of my hobbies is wilfully interpreting things as being a Hamlet variant - or a Fisher King variant, which is especially fun as Hamlet IS a Fisher King variant. Stone's JFK is, frankly, an amazing variation of Hamlet if you have a little bit of imagination - Magic Snake theory, etc etc.
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AntoNEO
14 years ago
On the special features for the Lion King DVD (which came out in 2003, I think), they have a few brief story featurettes that cover a lot of those things (Joseph Campbell, ancient stories, archetypes, Hamlet, etc.). The way they tell it, The Lion King was indeed created and intended as their first original work. As they shaped the story, they started to see the Hamlet connections and got really excited by them. Ultimately, they decided to embrace them as much as would be appropriate for their story. They said they went back and forth on how far to go. For instance, they even played around with pulling lines right out of Hamlet (such as "Good-night, sweet prince"). Ultimately, they felt that was being a bit too self-conscious and opted not to do that. As the story was developing and they started pitching it to others, it was often pitched as "Bambi and Hamlet with lions in Africa." So it sounds like they were definitely aware of (and embracing) those parallels at an early stage. Assuming their timeline is correct, that is.
Honestly, the special features on the Lion King DVD aren't that great by today's standards (aside from those brief looks at the story which only amount to about 10 minutes of screen time), but it's coming out later this year in a Blu-ray "Diamond" Edition, so I'm very excited to pick that up. The Beauty and the Beast Diamond Edition had a 3.5 hour making of documentary, commentaries, and more, so I hope The Lion King gets the same treatment. I'm very interested to hear more about the development of the project and get further details on specifically where they drew their inspirations.
It's funny you mention "a fundamental expression of an ancient story," because I was really struck by that when I watched Lion King again. I realized that I really like it when fundamental stories are re-dressed, re-purposed, and re-interpreted for a new audience. I think these stories are indeed fundamental (and, dare I say, primal) for a reason. We've been telling them for hundreds of years in every culture, there must be some reason why we continue to tell them, right? Interestingly enough, I've never actually read into this stuff beyond my high school literature course on Joseph Campbell, so I've recently decided that I need to do some more research on the subject, as I find it rather fascinating. If you have any suggestions are good reading material, I'd gladly take some notes from my resident IMDb literary connoisseur.
"I grew up watching TV and I turned out TV." - Homer Simpson
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combatreview
14 years ago
>>>The way they tell it, The Lion King was indeed created and intended as their first original work.
Or at least their first 'generic' work, I guess..! Actually, at the time it prompted an article about Campbell's postulated narrative structure in a Sunday magazine, and they analysed four very different films (including Four Weddings and a Funeral) to demonstrate the validity of this contention.
>>>I think these stories are indeed fundamental (and, dare I say, primal) for a reason.
Certainly. I suspect also that there may be a simple inevitability to the internal engineering of a story that makes certain structures all but unavoidable once certain types of story are set in motion.
>>>I've never actually read into this stuff beyond my high school literature course on Joseph Campbell, so I've recently decided that I need to do some more research on the subject, as I find it rather fascinating. If you have any suggestions are good reading material, I'd gladly take some notes from my resident IMDb literary connoisseur.
Hmm, well, I must confess that while I'm full of observations on this subject, I'm not necessarily well-researched on the theme. I'll look into the matter and get back to you... but at the same time, I think your own common sense is a good place to start. Once you start looking for the inter-relatedness of certain stories, they become increasingly apparent all around us.
For a good recent example, have a look at 'Inception' and try deconstructing the component parts of that story. You can find a certain debt to The Matrix, but also to the things that The Matrix in turn owes a debt to, such as William Gibson's Neuromancer. You can see elements of the Spy genre, and in particular there is a real sense of 'Mission Impossible' to the team pulling a complicated scam on an influential man... which isn't actually so far away from The Sting either. There are deliberate echoes of the stories of journeys into the depths of hell, with the central crisis of Di Caprio's character journeying to the bottom level of the dream world to try and retrieve the shade of his lost love, in true Orpheus style. This is before we even look at other 'Dream' stories, like Dreamscape - or indeed waking-dream stories like 'The Coma' by Alex Garland.
The fact that Inception is such a complicated bundle of influences is interesting, but also a sign of its skill, because it assembles these components with skill, and it comes across not as a lack of imagination but an astute awareness of the family history of the story being told.
Once you start looking for the interconnectedness of stories, it's impossible to stop, I find. And once you do that, it becomes inevitable that you start seeing the same stories in broad outline, repeating in unlikely ways.
For example - much to my surprise, I find that Forrest Gump compares very effectively with the myth of Sir Perceval and The Fisher King. I have no idea how intentional this was, but it's not a vague similarity either. Gump himself is a veritable Sir Perceval, honest and decent and courageous and unprejudiced as much through his simplistic nature as through any learned virtue... and Lieutenant Dan is definitely a Fisher King - the crippled warrior king, who is healed by Gump's fool even though Gump has absolutely no idea that he's doing it... Dan even becomes a fisherman with Gump prior to his catharsis.
Like I say... I have no idea if this is intentional or just an ancient story resurfacing within the culture that has borne it for centuries... but it's definitely fun to speculate.
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combatreview
14 years ago
Oh, and to your other question - in fact, ffeff sent me a Region 1 copy of LMI a little while ago, so there's less pressure on me re last week's R2 release. I thought the extras were the same, but I'll have to double-check... I think I saw the TV special referred to though - it was shown in the middle of the night here in November. Actually it was pretty good as these promos go - some nice interviews. It certainly drummed up my interest sufficiently.
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