MovieChat Forums > They Died with Their Boots On (1942) Discussion > trivia error

trivia error

posted 14 years ago by magolding
2 replies | jump to latest

I found this in the trivia section:

The highest regular Army rank attained by Winfield Scott was actually Major General. Lieutenant General was a brevet (temporary) rank. The First regular Lieutenant General would be Ulysses S. Grant, promoted to the rank in March of 1864. General Scott was also one of three veterans of the War of 1812 still listed in the rolls of the regular Army at the start of the Civil War.

This is misleading if "regular Army rank" is supposed to mean "Regular Army rank" -- rank in the standing army or Regular Army of the United States and not "ordinary, normal, usual army rank".

Winfield Scott's Brevet Rank of Lieutenant General was a rank in the Regular Army and thus it was a regular army rank. Though of course a brevet rank in the Regular Army was not the same thing as regular or ordinary or normal rank in the Regular Army or any other military organization.

Brevet may be derived from the French word for temporary but brevet ranks were not temporary.

General Wesley Merritt (1834-1910) graduated from West Point as a Second Lieutenant in 1860 and was promoted to captain in the Second US Cavalry in 1862, rapid war time promotion. On June 29, 1863 he was promoted to Brigadier General United states Volunteers, and Major General United states volunteers on April 1, 1865. He was also commissioned as a Brevet Major General in the United states Army, (the Regular Army) in April 1865.

Merritt was mustered out of volunteer service on Jan 28, 1866, and was a mere captain in the regular army. he was promoted to Lieutenant Colonel of the Ninth US Cavalry in the army reorganization of July 28, 1866, Colonel of the Fifth US cavalry on July 1, 1876, Brigadier General United states army in 1887, and Major General United States army in 1895, and retired in 1900.

Wesley Merritt had the full or normal or substantive ranks in the Regular Army of Lieutenant (2 years), Captain (4 years), Lieutenant Colonel (10 years), Colonel (11 years), Brigadier General (8 years), and Major General (5 years). In the United states Volunteers he had the full ranks of Brigadier General (1.75 years) and Major General (2 years).

But his rank of Brevet Major General in the United States Army lasted from 1865 to 1895, or 30 years. Many other Civil War officers also held brevet ranks for decades. A brevet rank was not very temporary.

[–] Captain_Augustus_McCrae 11 years ago

Incorrect. Custom and courtesy allowed former holders of brevet rank to be ADDRESSED by their former brevet rank, but the overwhelming majority of brevet rank holders reverted back to their permanent regular rank at war's end. Custer dropped back to captain before being promoted to Lt. Colonel. Captain Miles Keogh held brevet rank of colonel, but was demoted after the surrender. You might be confusing the purely social use of former rank for the officer's actual rank. A very small number of outstanding officers were assigned commands consistent with their brevet rank, like General George Crook or Wesley Merritt, but this was the exception rather than the rule. BTW, once an officer like Merritt was promoted to regular rank equal to his brevet rank, the brevet rank no longer exists. So when Merritt was made an actual Major General in 1895 he was no longer a brevet major general.

"It ain't dying I'm talking about, it's LIVING!"
Captain Augustus McCrae

[–] magolding 10 years ago

Your reply is largely incorrect.

Incorrect. Custom and courtesy allowed former holders of brevet rank to be ADDRESSED by their former brevet rank, but the overwhelming majority of brevet rank holders reverted back to their permanent regular rank at war's end. Custer dropped back to captain before being promoted to Lt. Colonel. Captain Miles Keogh held brevet rank of colonel, but was demoted after the surrender. You might be confusing the purely social use of former rank for the officer's actual rank.

What you and the sources of your knowledge seem to be saying is that a Civil War era general's general ranks can be visualized as being distributed in a plane being located along two axises. A general rank could be either brigadier general or major general or in rare cases higher, and it could be either in the volunteers (USV) or in the Regular Army (USA).

You and your sources seem to equate volunteer rank with brevet rank.

It is actually correct to visualize Civil War era general ranks as being distributed in a three dimensional figure located along three axises. One axis for rank, one axis for regular army or volunteer army, and one for substantive rank or brevet rank.

The United States of America has always had a number of different armies.

Each state and territory can have its own military forces, the militia, which later became the national guard. Indian tribes are also part of the USA with powers roughly similar to states or territories, and in those days they had their equivalent of militia, even though they often fought against the federal government instead of for it.

The federal government has the regular army, the standing professional army which is usually seen in movies about the Indian wars. The rank of major general in the regular army would be described as major general USA, standing for United states Army, meaning the regular army.

In times of war in the 19th century both the states and the federal government would raise volunteer units.

In the US Civil War most of the Union soldiers belong to volunteer units raised by the states and mustered into the service of the federal government.

When an officer in the regular army took a leave of absence to serve in the volunteers during the Civil War he could rise to a volunteer rank far higher than his regular army rank, since the volunteer army was far larger than the regular army.

And when the war ended the US Volunteers were disbanded and discharged and the volunteer officers' commissions would be terminated.

At the end of the Civil War General Custer was a captain in the regular army and a major general of US Volunteers, written as major general, USV. When the volunteers were disbanded in 1865-66 Custer retained his commission as a captain in the Fifth US Cavalry and in the army reorganization of 1866 he was promoted to lieutenant colonel in the new Seventh US Cavalry.

Appointments in the US Volunteers were not the same thing as brevet ranks either. Ranks in the Volunteers were substantive ranks just like ranks in the regular army. Brevet ranks were mainly honorary ranks, and there were brevet ranks in both the volunteer army and the regular army.

Thus George Crook (1828-1890), for example, was at different times a brigadier general and a major general in the US Volunteers and also a brigadier general and a major general in the regular army. Crook was also a brevet brigadier general and a brevet major general in the US Volunteers and also a brevet brigadier general and a brevet major general in the regular army. Thus he was commissioned a general eight times though he had only two different general ranks.