Loved The exchange Between The Dentist And The Pastor

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pearson-7 says > And how would you know what I know what you know what I know what you know what I know, etc.?

Your response seemed to be a way to deflect from the point I was making. I had said you were making a moral judgment so saying you have morals was redundant and unnecessary.

Am I passing my own moral judgement? Absolutely!...I just don't pretend my morality comes from magic.

I don't take issue with your passing judgment. We all do it to some extent but you made it seem like only religious people do it. I don't pretend my morality comes from magic. You said that and now you're arguing against it. My morals are based on my religious beliefs and convictions. You may be an atheist but, ironically, whatever morals you have would be based on religious tenets as well. People are taught right and wrong we don't inherently know it. It has to come from somewhere.

most Jewish people I've met flinch at the term "Judeo-Christian" values, as the term itself is actually a rather sly way of dragging Jewish people into mire that is Christianity.

Apparently, like you, those people are unfamiliar with the term and how it's used. It is neither an attempt to drag one group in nor exclude another. It simply acknowledges the shared values of Jews and Christians and how those values have helped shape American culture. Jews and Christians have the Old Testament part of the Bible in common; which forms the basis for most, if not all, of this country's core values.

Jews don't believe in your Christ. Ironically, the Muslims DO believe in Jesus, yet I see few Christians jumping to support "Christo-Islam," which of course, is another way of saying "Islam." Ho-Hum.

Christians splintered off from Jews when some Jews went on to follow Jesus Christ that is where the term 'Christian' came from - get it? Clearly, it's not that they don't believe in Jesus, he just doesn't represent to them what he does to Christians. Muslim see Jesus as a prophet but again, he is not to them what he is to Christians. All three of these religions have monotheism in common, and, I dare say, while the approaches are different, we worship the same God.

By the way, I'm not sure why you seem to be trying to create division. I am Catholic but I have always been encouraged, not only, to learn about other religions but also to have respect for them; even atheists. We are all God's children. I have always had friends, and relatives, of all different backgrounds and religions and we all get along perfectly fine. We talk about religion and cultural differences as openly as we talk about anything else.

the United States is NOT based on Christianity, but on ENGLISH LAW, which in turn is based on Roman and Greek law. You know them I'm sure: the old heathens!

Values, my friend; I said values! You're talking about court procedures and forms of government; big difference!

I've read the Bible from Cover-to-Cover...

Your reading the Bible is probably like someone reading a cookbook. I would not discourage it but you get a lot more out of it when you put it into action.

it is true probably many American atheists use PARTS of the Bible as a part for their moral values. Even a broken clock is right twice a day. However, atheists ALSO gleem wisdom from other the Qur'an, the Gita, the sayings of Buddha and others.

The broken clock analogy and the search for wisdom in religious texts suggest that a lot of self-described atheists are probably more agnostic than they care to admit. Maybe they just lack the resolve to be Faithful.

the MOST IMPORTANT elements of morality come from our parents, our schools, and the laws that make up our society --.

I agree, sort of. We used to be able to rely on various people and institutions to reinforce shared values but it doesn't really work that way anymore. As a society we no longer seem to have many values in common; some aren't even patriotic and others don't seem to have any morals or values at all. It all leads to tension and hostility - the kind that threatens to erupt every day.

those aren't the laws made up by Moses

Moses, really? I know that was intentional and not a slip but I'll say it anyway. Moses did not make up the ten commandments; he delivered them. If someone hands you a note from someone else, would you assume the messenger wrote it? Would you also dispute how the messenger received the note or that he received it at all? If so, you have some serious issues.

I can only go by what they themselves say.

A lot of religious people, even those who devote their lives to it, sometimes struggle or question their faith; it happens but usually they come out of it with greater resolve. What someone says may reflect where they are in their lives or to whom they're speaking. They may not care to share those details with those who can't understand or relate; meaning they may not be telling you all that's going on.

Oh REALLY? Are suggesting slamming a hammer into you kneecap produces the same sensation as breaking up with your lover?

Maybe you've never felt that kind of pain. If not, consider yourself lucky. Emotional pain, like what one suffers as a result of a loss, can feel worst than a hammer to the knee. You can't put ice on that kind of pain or massage it to soothe it away. Pain from a hammer to the knee, even if it causes serious damage, tends to subside after a while. Emotional pain, on the other hand, can endure; even after years the pain can persist and it can lead to other problems.

Inner pain is often the reason some people use and abuse drugs and alcohol; others express their pain in an outwardly fashion. They use anger, violence, hatred, etc.; anything to make themselves feel better. They desperately try to dull the pain or even escape it - if only for a while; much the same way some people abuse painkillers to deal with chronic physical pain. If you can't understand that you probably have a lack of empathy too. I'm sure you've heard that the scars from emotional pain can be deeper and harder to heal than physical ones.

Pain is one of many areas in which Faith can play an important role in a person's life. Those who cannot see beyond the obvious, the here and now, or who feel hopelessly stuck in their current situation will have a difficult time getting through life. Those without faith of any kind tend to give up when confronted with obstacles. What is life without hope?

I'm an atheist, and therefore, your god doesn't mean much to me. Is there a god out there? Darned if I know. But regarding YOUR god, the odds look very slim indeed. Nor does it look good for your devil, angels, demons, Heaven, Hell or even your concept of "Sin." It all seems pretty bogus to me. However, IF I did believe that an all powerful god existed... I sincerely doubt it - or any of its agents - would be talking to a guy a burn bush, on a road to Damascas, inside a cave, or anywhere else. MOST of all, I really doubt that YOU would know what such a god would expect, as I doubt it has private conversations with you. More likely you got it from another human being.

All of this is another way of saying God must be proven to you. It shows your complete arrogance but it makes me laugh because disproving something is a lot more difficult than proving it. You have an uphill struggle but at least you're determined.

Why not ask me to prove the existence of air? People were breathing long before they understood the concept of oxygen. Does that mean oxygen did not exist until they understood it? Give me a break! Do you not believe in love because you can't see it, hold it, or touch it? If you're lucky you feel it so you know; that explains it but if you've never experienced it it's hard for someone to even begin to give you an idea of what it's like. Speaking of ideas, what about them; what does an idea look like? How do they come to be in your mind? Is it magic? I guess people can't possibly have ideas since there's no such thing, right?

I really doubt that YOU would know what such a god would expect, as I doubt it has private conversations with you. More likely you got it from another human being.

I guess everything you know about the universe you figured out yourself. Congrats! I see it differently; so much of what we 'know' is what we've been taught by others. Having been taught a concept simply gives us a better understanding of what we have experienced and continue to experience for ourselves.

These days a lot of parents fail to teach their children the basic things they need to know: values and morals. They don't learn these things in school either or they're taught the wrong things. That's why we have hordes of people in society who are simply lost. They're ill-equipped to deal with life and we all pay the price.

I don't pretend to have ANY ANSWERS.

Except that there is no God. You seem pretty darn certain of that! Do you know what an atheist is? Not having all the answers would make you an agnostic. Atheists claim to know.

I am amused by people who do insist they do, because an invisible friend must have done it.

My invisible friend is awesome and has done a lot! It's too bad you don't know him; he sure knows you! You keep saying it's magical thinking to believe in God but what could be more magical than to believe we just sprang up out of nothing? I think you refer to Faith as magic because you're unable to understand it. That's the same thing primitive people did when they couldn't understand something too. They thought of it as magic.

Faith is the opposite of knowledge. Those with one don't need the either. You, it seems, pretend to have both while having neither.

Faith is not the opposite of knowledge. They work together and we need both. You claim to seek both but say they are mutually exclusive. How bizarre! To say I have neither suggests you're some kind of an authority but you clearly are not. You have no Faith and still need proof for what is all around you.

I can see I'M here. As for you... can I really be sure? But there is more evidence for you than for your god.

You say those things so casually without, apparently, ever giving them much thought. How do you know you're here? Where is here? These are things you have been taught along the way. You can see parts of your body, yes, but to really see yourself; all of you, requires reflection. People existed for ages without ever seeing themselves the way we're able to see ourselves today yet they existed just as we do. A lot of animals, upon seeing their reflection, will attack that 'other animal' not realizing they're looking at themselves. They exist but aren't aware so stop taking so much for granted.

You have no idea who I am but you could make some general assumptions. However, you 'know' me because we've been communicating over a medium that did not exist fifty years ago. People then could never have imagined the concept of having a discussion with someone they'd never met. You have no idea where or who I am but does it matter? No. This very real electronic 'connection' would have, at one point, been considered magic; to some it probably still is even while many of us take it for granted.

I still watch movies made long before even my parents were born. They still bring out emotions in me all these years later. That is magical in a sense but it's also real. You have to free your mind. That's an important part of Faith. Closed-minded people can't have Faith because it means you have to believe that whatever you know at a given point is not the end all or be all; it's not the final word. It's very arrogant, in my opinion, to think that only we can determine what is and is not in the universe. Accepting there is a higher power shows we're humble. We may be on top of the food chain and we are special but we're not everything and we did not create ourselves.

I demand SOMETHING. You have nothing at all. I leave you with you self-satifaction. However, if your god DOES show up, send it my way. Maybe it can dance as well as Fred Astaire.

There's that arrogance again. When you watch Astaire dance how can you not believe in God? The things a human body can do; all that we are... With all we know we still can't replicate a human or even come close. We've also never seen anything spontaneously come into existence and develop to be human. Why has it not continue to happen? Still, you want to think this wondrous universe we live in just developed perfectly out of nothing. You can believe that; it's your choice because God gave us free will. I chose to believe that it was all, including ourselves, the result of intelligent design. By the way, intelligent design is not incompatible with evolution. I've always been taught and believe in both.

I don't need to send God your way any more than I need to send you the air you need to breathe. Like God, air is all around, inside, and a part of you though your five senses cannot detect it. You know it's there because it's what you were taught; because of the effects it has on you; and because it's what you believe.


Woman, man! That's the way it should be Tarzan. [Tarzan and his mate]

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