MovieChat Forums > Triumph des Willens (1935) Discussion > why are people so afraid of history?

why are people so afraid of history?


I have a feeling that people fear the Nazis not so much because of what they did (Holocaust, incite the world to global war), but because they demonstrate what we folks who consider ourselves civilized can be capable of under the right conditions.

To my knowledge, Hitler didn't kill a single Jew with his own hands, and did not fight in a single battle in the second world war. He brought out the murderer in the average joe - he made the nice boy next door earnestly believe that butchering civilians (of 'inferior' stock) a hundred at a time was virtuous and good. In a sense, he hypnotized an entire nation and turned it into a killing machine. And given that those of European stock consider themselves to be the apex of "civilization," it is frightening to see how easily and completely a "civilized" nation descended into barbarism.

So I think that Nazism is feared in the West simply because people can see many elements of Nazism in themselves (especially racism and imperialist nationalism), and therefore are not confident of their or their neighbors' ability to not succumb to another hypnotist like Hitler

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I keep telling people Hitler, like Bush Jr, was a tool.

Goering, Hess and Goebbles were the masterminds.

Hitler was their tool gone mad.

Most people fear Nazis because most people are average in their capacity for knowledge, they don't care to analyze and thus they just stay away from it, just like the fact that nobody wants to talk about Abortion or World Hunger.

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he was very intelligent. read mein kampf. he wasnt at all like bush, hitler was actually quite intelligent. but a mass murdering *beep* head at the same time.

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You actually read Mein Kampf? It is a literary nightmare! Full of gramatical errors and simply does not flow as an intellectual piece of work should!

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Yes he was a mad man, but at the same time he was a rhetorical genius

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Goering, Hess and Goebbles were the masterminds.

Goebbels? Maybe.

But Goering was no mastermind... more of a pompous (and insanely jealous) figurehead.

And Hess was the most innocent of all of the prominent Nazis... he truly believed in restoring Germany to greatness, and when he saw how Hitler was running the war (and the home front) he fled to Britain, wanting no part of the evil.

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Your analysis of Hess and his motives in the flight to Scotland is terribly incorrect. First, there is a lot of evidence that Hitler told him to go there. Second, Hess did not think that Hitler was "evil", nothing of the sort, he actually spoke in favor of Hitler in his final statement to the judges at the Nuremberg Trial in 1946.

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Besides the fact that I'm sick of people comparing every political leader they don't like to Hitler... *cough*

Hitler, while he depended on the support of people like Goebbles, had his ideology figured out long before he met Goebbles, Hess (his secretary, actually), etc. He also always had the final say on all policies...so I think it takes away from Hitler's political genius to blame it on other people. It also makes people more comfortable to dismiss Hitler as insane. Because only insane people would act that way, right? I mean...normal people would never believe these things. Oh, wait...

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[quote]Goering, Hess and Goebbles were the masterminds.{/quote]

Rather surprising that in this thread there is no mention of top nazis such as Himmler and Heydrich as masterminds.

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I have a feeling that people fear the Nazis not so much because of what they did (Holocaust, incite the world to global war), but because they demonstrate what we folks who consider ourselves civilized can be capable of under the right conditions.
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I consider the nazis monsters for the holocaust and inciting a mass war. I know the human animal is capable of anything and everything, but I give blame where blame is due.

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To my knowledge, Hitler didn't kill a single Jew with his own hands, and did not fight in a single battle in the second world war. He brought out the murderer in the average joe - he made the nice boy next door earnestly believe that butchering civilians (of 'inferior' stock) a hundred at a time was virtuous and good. In a sense, he hypnotized an entire nation and turned it into a killing machine. And given that those of European stock consider themselves to be the apex of "civilization," it is frightening to see how easily and completely a "civilized" nation descended into barbarism.
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Yeap, scary *beep*

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So I think that Nazism is feared in the West simply because people can see many elements of Nazism in themselves (especially racism and imperialist nationalism), and therefore are not confident of their or their neighbors' ability to not succumb to another hypnotist like Hitler
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What is the point? That people can be manipulated, that they can be shaped? Please make a point other than stating the obvious.

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given the fact that Nazis are usually simply dismissed as monsters and the psychology of that situation is rarely explored, I think that my point was far from "obvious."

At least in America, people pride themselves on being independent and trust their ability (or the media's ability, or their congressman's ability) to sniff out a potential dictator and help preserve "the republic." The truth is, however, that Americans are just as susceptible to a "monstrous" dictator as the Germans were in the 30's and 40's. We, like Nazi Germany, are run by a corporatist military industrial complex that thrives on militarism, and when corporate and military interests dominate policy, a dictator disconnected from true popular interests is inevitable.
My point is that though Americans pride themselves on their democracy, all we need is the right context for an American Hitler (for example, one that is anti-Muslim, blaming Arabs for our current economic crisis, so on and so on), and manipulating popular fears into a mechanism that compels us to willfully give away our rights to the state.
My point is that this idea is not as far fetched as people believe, and that for most people this is not so obvious because they remove themselves from the possiblity by saying "Hitler is a monster, I would never agree with someone who would treat other humans like animals."

If this was so obvious, there would be at least greater public demand for transparency beyond the typical complaining of conspiracy theories.

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The American people are just as easily duped. Look at the feverish patriotism that fuels the "war on terror" The US could begin invading countries with only a 51% objection. Polarization has also led politicians to focus on elections issues, and not REAL issues. These fluff issues draw voters to one side, loyal despite whatever other ideas a politician may have.

Guantanamo Bay and CIA rendition do not alarm the public at all. NSA surveillance appears to fall on deaf ears. The cry of public safety has allowed the government to snatch power willfully, while the people line up to give it away. Yet we villianize the people of Germany for their actions. Ask the average american their opinion of rounding up every Middle Eastern person. The fear has created an interesting and scary response. If we proposed shipping them off to simply "somewhere" many would readily agree to it.

Deterrence is the art of producing in the mind of the enemy... the fear to attack

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id say he was quite Lucky, not necesarelly intelligent (how could somehow misunderstood Nietzche so badly?).

Lucky in the sense that he, Hitler, was no Napoleon, he basiclly arrived at a certain time in wich the economy was horrendous and germans were starving considering that they were a rich nation... up comes this messiah... and the rest is history.

Kinda like George W.

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Well, in simpliistic terms, I guess you are right.

However, the reason for Hitlers rise to power is a little more complex than Germany was starving and here comes Hitler. I would be happy to supply the forum with this information once my writing is complete, look for it around this Friday-Monday (long deadline, but hey, I am only a university student :) )

Long story short, Hitler was no Napoleon, for the simple fact that Napoleon was a great general, and had a great understanding for military logistics, Russia not withstanding.

Napoleon, however, did rise to power in France during a time of great unstability and danger in France. He promissed France security, and the French supported him in his endavours, much like the situtation with Hitler in the 1930s. We have to remember that, not only was Germany defeated in 1918, but the conditions of Versailles were created to punish Germany unfairly after World War One. I don't want this to turn into a World War One dicussion, if you want to challenge my point on the harshness of Versailles, email me at [email protected], and we will dicuss it futher there. These conditions, along with the Second Reich policy of printing money to pay for the war, lead to MASSIVE inflation, to the point of 17,000 Reich Marks to 1 US dollar by 1923.(If you want a refernce, I'll be happy to provide one) The average German person blaimed the Weimar Republic for this problem, among others, and by the late 1920s, hardly anyone in Germany was willing to support the idea of a democracy. (Again, want a refernce, ask)

In comes Hitler, promissing a Germany that isn't held back by the Western powers, isn't weak, and isn't broke. Anyone living in the conditions of Germany would have jumped on board with his policies. (You have to remember that anti-semitisim was abound in Germany) This lead to the rise of Hitler. Yes he was "lucky" in the fact that the depression, Versailles, and the inability of the Weimar Republic to control the streets of Germany, but he was also intelligent. You give Hitler too little credit. (Not a sentence, as a German historian, I am used to typing :) )

Anyway, further dicussion is always welcome, espically if you don't agree with something I wrote. An argument, as long as it is intelligent, is always fun.

P.S I don't want "Hitler was an *beep* so we should all hate him" replys. If you have something meaningful to add, by all means, but if it is just Hitler bashing, forget a reply from me. Yes he was an *beep* idiot, we don't need to be remindend of it every two bloody seconds.

P.P.S Hitler was nothing like Geroge W. Hitler was smart, charasmitic, and understood what his people wanted.

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Very interesting post. I also like the parallel with Napoleon. One thing that Napoleon had going for him besides the chaos were his victories during the Directory Period and the Reign of Terror. These victories made him very popular, plus helped solidify the allegiance of the army. Something he would definitely need. Interesting how that also happened to people like Caesar and Augustus.

Hitler would parallel this. He gained popularity with the people by telling them what they wanted to hear... Most Germans didn't believe that they had won the war. Hitler used the end of the war to his advantage, saying that the people were betrayed by their leaders. Then that dreadful Treaty of Versailles, plus the depression.

How did Hitler gain the trust of the Army? Was it because Goering was one of his top advisers? Goering had 22 kills as a fighter pilot. Or was it simply because he said, and proved that he would restore Germany to glory?

What are your thoughts?


I also agree with you about Bush. He's just a puppet. Couldn't manage his way out of a wet paper bag with both ends open.



Protovision, I have you now!

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Hitler's initial relationship with the army came from his early post war work. He was a "political" spy used by the army to investigate start-up political movements. This led him to the National Socialist party, which Hitler took over yadda yadda yadda.

Once the NSDAP became a somewhat viable political movement, Hitler, ulitizing the Freikorp, created the SA for "security", and an increased presence. These Freikorp unites were mostly retired WWI soldiers who had no work, and were quite good at fighting.

As Hitler gained more political power, he created stronger ties to the military, through promisses of greater power in the reich, as well as increasing its size from the tiny Versailles allotment to a massive fighting force. The military, for their own part, believed that they could use Hitler as a puppet, and control the reichstag through him. This didn't happen of course, but by the time Hitler became chancellor, the army was too "indebted" to him to challenge him.

From here, the relationship would initally be a good one, as Hitler supplied the wermarcht with quick decisive victories over Poland, France, Denmark, and Norway. However, as Hitler took more control over the army, finally taking over all aspects of military matters, the wermarcht, at least the old guard, were beginning to become fed up with him. By this time, however, there were too many Nazi hardliners in the higher ranks for much to be done.

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I don't approve any of the crimes committed by the Germans but this movie needs to be watched so that effective propaganda does not fool us again. The World was fooled by this movie and the favorable impression that they made when they hosted the 1936 Olympics. Many people know of Jesse Owens success but still Germany won more medals there than any other country and Mr. Owens made a then comdemnation of our society when he was quoted as being better treated in Germany than in his own country. This propaganda was effective because when war crimes were reported the world refused to believe it until later.
It is best to study these type of films and tactics in order to not be deceived again.

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You're right in part, we do (or should) see ourselves and we should flinch at it. Below is a link to the best intro to TOW I have seen. And while I don't agree with everything David Thompson says about films (I happen to like Laurence of Arabia and Bridge over the river Kwai a lot thank you) I'm also always interested in his intelligent arguments. Same goes here, TOW is a masterful and inspiring piece of filmaking for its time, it is also totally abhorrent in light of history, all at once. As Thompson asks, what would you have said if the Hitler youth turned up to your house and said come to an inspiring march. We all hope that we would have told them to take a jump, but this is 2013, not 1934 after the depression and Versailles. Shows the importance of remembering history (as you say) and every time I see this film I am reminded of both the power and danger in cinema (and tv etc for that matter).
http://fora.tv/2007/09/25/Film_Historian_David_Thomson_on_Hollywood

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