Why is Leni vilified by Hollywood? - Triumph des Willens (1935) Discussion

[–] 21 years ago

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[–] ChrisL138 21 years ago

Could it be possible that she's villified because of her association with a political entity that murdered MILLIONS OF PEOPLE? Hmmmm, maybe? By the way, Hollywood is not alone here. She had to deal with the hatred her work with the Nazi's produced for her entire life from a variety of different countries, societies and film industries.

And you must have missed the numerous media reports attacking Polanski before, during and after the Oscars. His penchant for pedophlia was most certainly an issue.

Hollywood has a long history of turning it's back on some of it's most talented artists. Look at the Hollywood Ten, Orson Welles and Elia Kazaan's Oscar for lifetime acheivment, etc.

But what you're seeing here is human nature, not just a pattern of behavior particular to Hollywood.

All that aside, her art is fantastic and she should be honored and celebrated for it.

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[–] ashleybenford 21 years ago

I am really pleased that you have asked this question because it kind of links to my media exam I am taking this summer. Has Leni Riefenstahl recieved more criticism because she is a woman? If anybody has any views on this I'd be s grateful!
thanks!

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[–] heebie_jeebies 21 years ago

Of course not! Do you think Hollywood would go easy on male nazi sympathisers?

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[–] kubrickation 20 years ago

Actually, Riefenstahl most certainly did receive more villification because she was a woman. As I mentioned before, Fellini and Rossellini (both incredible filmmakers, btw) made tons of propaganda films for Mussollini (also a fascist dictator responsible for murdering millions), while Riefenstahl made only 3 for Hitler. Virtually no one remembers this today because it's assumed that it is a man's right to move from one stage of his life (i.e. making films for a brutal dictator) to the next (making their own feature films). Riefenstahl was a woman and one of only a handful of female directors at the time. She was QUITE an easy target. Do I think Hollywood sympathized with male nazis? No, but let's remember that Riefenstahl wasn't exactly a Nazi sympathizer. She was appalled by the genocide committed by Hitler. Her weakness was that before it all happened, she came to respect him and it was incredibly difficult for her to accept that a man she so admired was capable of this. Is she guilty of being naive? Yes, I think so, but I cannot condemn her for that because I believe many in her situation would have behaved similarly, and she was no more naive than the majority of Germans at the time. If we demonize her, we have to demonize them all and I am not prepared to do that. Do you honestly think that the German public at that time were so different from people anywhere else? Humans are humans, and when it comes to basic human tendencies, peoplet usually behave in much the same way around the world. Being a woman, this was not considered a "phase" for her, but a crime and while Fellini and Rossellini (in addition to other filmmakers who made propaganda films for brutal leaders) were allowed to move on with their lives, Riefenstahl was demonized until the day she died.

Do some research on Riefenstahl and her life and you will most certainly see that she was not a "Nazi sympathizer"

"I am not your blowing wind...I am the lightning."
Audioslave, "I Am the Highway"

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[–] steve.schonberger 21 years ago

I have no idea what the actual percentage of movie industry people are Jewish, but the sort of generalization you make is unfair and offensively worded.

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[–] heebie_jeebies 21 years ago

I have nothing against the average orthodox Jew, and this is not whom I was referring to. I do, however, have a problem with the big-shot Zionist Hollywood Jews who vilify anyone they don't like by applying the all-encompassing multi-purpose label of "anti-Semite" to them. Leni is one person they vilified; David Irving is another, and Mel Gibson is the latest. And there are plenty more examples. And just last year the Israeli government attempted to ban a documentary about Israel's weapons of mass destruction - and what excuse did they use? Apparently the film was "anti-Semitic" and "vilified the Jewish state"! Excuse me? "vilified the Jewish state"?! So you can't criticise Israel now without being a racist? Funny how any other country in the world is fair game without the suspicion of racial/religious based motives, but if you dare criticise the government of Israel, you're an anti-Semite! Sure, not all Jews are like this - and not even all Jews in Hollywood are like this. You call my comments generalisations. True, that's exactly what they were, and they should be taken as such, i.e. not intended to apply to all Jews, but merely a "general" statement about a lot of Hollywood Jews. If you took offence at my comments then I apologise; it certainly wasn't my intention.

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[–] Krustallos 21 years ago

David Irving is definitely a nazi sympathiser, he's spoken at fascist meetings in the UK. Leni Reifenstahl did make propaganda films for the Nazis and never really recanted, and Mel Gibson's father is apparently a Holocaust denier (although not Gibson himself). So you're not on particularly strong ground with those examples.

However the general thrust of your argument has some validity. I've seen the "Hollywood 90% Jewish" statistic quoted, approvingly, by Zionist Jews. There are not too many films made about the suffering of the Palestinians, but crazed arab terrorists have been an action movie staple for a while.

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[–] 21 years ago

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[–] woodah 21 years ago

It is wrong on a number of levels to say that Hollywood is "run" by Jews. First of all, even if 90% of people working in Hollywood were Jewish -- which any demographer can assure you is impossible -- they would still have to agree on some sort of an agenda in order to "run" the town. This is hard to pull off. I can't imagine Jeff Katzenberg and Michael Eisner agreeing on much of anything at their secret late-night Zionist meetings.

This issue of a big Palestinian movie is also misguided. (You didn't enjoy Klaus Kinski in "Little Drummer Girl," I take it?) There hasn't been a big-budget Hollywood movie about the Rwanda massacres, the Balkan ethnic cleansing, or the occupation of Tibet either. That's because none of these topics scream box office. Before "Schindler's List" everyone thought Holocaust movies would tank too. Afterwards, we get "Life is Beautiful" and "Jakob the Liar." So if "Shaheed: The Movie" makes money, trust me, there'll be plenty more Palestinian movies in production. Just watch all the crap we're going to have to endure in the wake of "The Passion."

As for Leni, she's vilified because she used her considerable artistic gifts to lionize one of the most evil socio-political ideologies the world has ever seen. You don't have to be a Jew to feel a little queasy about her. You could be, say, a communist, or a gypsy, or a slav, or a homosexual, or a member of any other group the Nazis targeted. Or, if you really wanted to cover your bases, you could be a Jewish homosexual communist -- like David Geffen!

(I'm just kidding. Geffen's no communist.)

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[–] ultravio13 20 years ago

in fact all the major studios in hollywood are run by jews,why deny or downplay it?while it doesnt mean that they all work hand in hand with each other,they do stick together far more then white gentiles do,and are very intolerant of any percieved antisemitism.obviously this is the reason this great woman was not able to make any more movies,and was demonized the way she was.and why isnt sergei eisenstein demonized in the same way??he made movies for a far bigger mass murderer(josef stalin)yet when they talk of his movies today,that fact is conveniently ignored,and for what its worth eisenstein was of jewish ancestry.also someone else said that fellini and rossellini made propaganda movies for mussolini,i was not aware of this,do you know of the titles??

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[–] Ddey65 20 years ago

There hasn't been a big-budget Hollywood movie about the Rwanda massacres, the Balkan ethnic cleansing, or the occupation of Tibet either.

What about Welcome to Sarajevo and Kundun? I remember Red China put Martin Scorsese on their blacklist for that one.

Beyond that, I can't help but notice that Riefenstahl's post-war filmography was incredibly sparse. I can't imagine how she made enough money to keep herself living until the age of 101.

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[–] ktowny 13 years ago

"There hasn't been a big-budget Hollywood movie about the Rwanda massacres"

I see your post is dated 2004, so we'll forgive you. Hotel Rwanda has come out since. Great flick, too.

Love's turned to lust and blood's turned to dust in my heart.

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[–] FLINTLOCK 20 years ago

Bravo, heebie!, good answer! and Steve.....Lighten up!

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[–] jtpaladin 20 years ago

Hollywood is full of communists who are still upset that Hitler broke his treaty with Stalin. Hollywood was hoping to keep Nazism and Communism together and when that failed, they have been upset about the Nazi's but not the Communists.

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[–] 20 years ago

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[–] Krustallos 21 years ago

I think you have that exactly a**e about face. If it hadn't been for Hitler and European anti-semitism generally, Zionism would have remained a lunatic fringe idea like Rastafarianism and we would not have the problems we face today in the middle east.

So we (and the Palestinians) have the Nazis and their apologist scumbags like you to blame for that as well. Thanks guys.

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[–] vlvetmorning98 21 years ago

Rastafarianism is not a "lunatic fringe" idea. It doesn't even have a general code or protocol. Please don't make such ignorant statements

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[–] earthborn44 21 years ago

Well, he maybe wanted to state that when someone has a ideology if people pay attention to it (no matter how crazy or inhumane it seems) it makes it stronger.

I can see that rasta & zionism are just the same, like nazi, catholisism, etc just ideas in the heads of the selfish who cannot look deep into themselves alone, allways need to rely on past generations experiences & ideas. (& history is a proof of that erratic behaviour, if it´s really peace what we want to achieve in life, then none of the past sacred ideals will ever help in that).

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[–] maupertus 20 years ago

I'm really getting anoyed with people trying to place blame and start fueds that started long befor they ever were born. By the way I think the blaiming of "The Jew" or for the matter "The Freemason" or whatever a significant sign of "The Loser" that can't make something out of his life and therefor has to blame someone, not being his own foolishness or laziness.

On another note, Leni Riefenstahl has shot multiple propaganda films for the Nazi party, and that's a blemmish that can never be erased. However, everybody seems to forget that if you weren't a member of the Culturkamer, you couldn't do anything. If you were good and you wouldn't cooperate, you would be ruined, your family harrased and what not. If you took a stand against Nazism, you were shot as a traitor of the cause. A lot of people fled when Hitler came to power, and as Triumph des Willens illustrates, by the time Riefenstahl's work became propaganda, the party was so powerfull it could dominate every aspect of life.

Never ever! Think that you could possibly presume the impact and importance of this historical cadre. Never dare to think you have the experience or the wisdom to judge the people in that position. If there is a god, he is the only one that could judge, untill I meet my maker and can ask him, I like Riefenstahl's work for it's beauty and ability to convey the feelings needed, even I felt impressed at times even though I know the history and what followed. I don't think Jews have anything to do with her expulsion out of collective admiration, like all of us "they" probably have better things to do. But I sincerely hope my children will have the wisdom to see her work without any bias, but with wisdom.

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[–] Krustallos 13 years ago

Rastafarianism is not a "lunatic fringe" idea.

Well personally I find the idea that Emperor Haile Selassie of Ethiopia was the second coming of Christ to be a little on the loopy side. Perhaps that's just me....

I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.

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[–] rothoehler 13 years ago

Amen.
Expecially when taking into account that he himself or the church of Ethiopia never made such assumptions.

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[–] Krustallos 13 years ago

But the specific point of comparison I was making between Rastafarianism and Zionism is this: Rastafarianism as a general tenet holds that black people worldwide should return to Africa, specifically Ethiopia. Imagine the chaos which would ensue if they did so. More than 100 million Black Americans, West Indians, Latin Americans etc descending on an impoverished African country. It's plainly a daft idea.

Zionism is almost as daft an idea. Set up your European-style nation state on land already occupied by another group of people who have been there for millennia? Not likely to go well, is it? The only thing that made it look like a good idea to Jews as a whole was the fact that living in Europe had got 6 million of them killed by extremely well-organised lunatics. If it hadn't been for the history of European & Russian anti-semitism even Theodore Herzl would have found a less troublesome project to occupy his time with.

I used to want to change the world. Now I just want to leave the room with a little dignity.

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[–] kubrickation 20 years ago

First of all, the details surrounding the case with Polanski and the young girl have always been quite iffy. He claims to not have known she was so young and from what I understand, the girl (now a grown woman, of course) has explicitly stated that Polanski DID NOT have any idea she was 13 and she never wanted him to be deported. To call Mr. Polanski a child molester when you don't know what really happened is going too far.

Secondly, I do agree with you about Riefenstahl. She was never a member of the Nazi party (women were not allowed to be Nazis), she despised Hitler's racial politics, and she was doing what any filmmaker at that time would have jumped at the opportunity to do-make a film for the leader of her country. One can argue that Riefenstahl was too naive, but that argument would have to be applied to most Germans at that time-she is no more guilty than any of them. Her crimes were as follows: 1) She was a woman (Fellini and Rossellini made propaganda films for Mussolini, but no one seems to remember or care about that); 2) Her film was TOO good. It's near visual perfection; and 3) She never bowed down to public pressure and apologized. I personally don't know what she has to apologize for. The Hitler the Germans loved then was an extremely different concept from the loathed Hitler we all know today. We all know the swastika's connotations. The reason we are wary of people like Hitler today is BECAUSE of Hitler-they did not have that advantage then, unfortunately, although one could also argue that they should have known and at some point, taken action (when they saw entire Jewish families being torn from their homes and shipped off in trucks). If anything, I think Riefenstahl's film lives on today as a testament of why we cannot afford to stop paying attention.

Besides, if one is to condemn her, they'd also have to condemn several modern filmmakers who have "borrowed" her techniques and lifestory for their own films (George Lucas and Steven Spielberg among them).

Lastly, Riefenstahl was an opportunist. She used these visuals because they looked good-not because she was a Nazi. If Riefenstahl was a fascist, then so are Lucas, Spielberg, and Kubrick (and he being my favorite filmmaker, I will debate to the death anyone who claims that Kubrick was fascist), as well as anyone who filmed any of the Olympic games since she made hers.

"I am not your blowing wind...I am the lightning."
Audioslave, "I Am the Highway"

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[–] vlvetmorning98 20 years ago

'First of all, the details surrounding the case with Polanski and the young girl have always been quite iffy. He claims to not have known she was so young and from what I understand, the girl (now a grown woman, of course) has explicitly stated that Polanski DID NOT have any idea she was 13 and she never wanted him to be deported. To call Mr. Polanski a child molester when you don't know what really happened is going too far.'

regardless of her age, drugging someone and having sex with them while they're inebriated is a crime, and a pretty severe one at that. Are you gonna try to spin that, too?

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[–] jadie_bell 20 years ago

I just wanted to say that i feel deeply for Leni Riefenstahl's situation. She was in a time where to oppose the government would result in certain death. Hitler asked her to produce some pro-nazi films, so she did. She was a film maker and she saw an amazing oppurtunity to capture a German revolution! She created cinematic masterpieces that have become the blue prints for highly regarded directors (Lucas, Spielberg)! She vehemently denied her alleged connection with the Nazis as anything more than simply film making. Personally, I believe Riefenstahl in her stance and feel sorry that one of the greatest film makers ever was subjected to such narrowmindedness and even prejudice until her dying days.

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[–] zimmerx 20 years ago

Fellini did NOT make any propaganda films for Mussolini. He became a director at the end of the fourties, but he wrote screenplays until he started working as a director.

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[–] asmodeux-1 19 years ago

The Jewish community is paranoid. do you remenber that they banned Wagner's symphonic operas becouse it was a musical emblem of the nazis? thats nonsense!
They also blam Fredrich Nietzsche of being a mentor of the nazi theories althought he NEVER tried to mean such thing!
the holocaust theory is just their excuse in order to be able to be and to do whatever they want with their money and their pretentions of power and domination. whats better than to blame everyone of being antisemite or nazi if they find that whatever you say or do (even if it is not nazi or antisemite per se) may be interpreted as negative against their will of domination and control? what a nice strategy they have...

Leni's work is about nazism yes, so what? it is a mere coincidence of art colliding with a certain moment in time. she decided to make art with nazism and guess what it turned to be great.
Its obvious why Jews condemned her, she was a genius and her art is about nazism. and when something is great and beautiful but its aesthetical parameters are politically incorrect and or morally questionable the trolls only have one solution to shut up the bright genius....banning it.

should we condemn and ban the work of the medieval painters becouse they supported and vindicated the sinister work of the inquisition?
absolutely not!
their paintings are great and their political positioning is nothing but the cause of their ultimate genius...again a macabre or horrible coincidence but that is just the consequence of some weird determinism.

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[–] al-386 19 years ago

Very well put Asmodeux,I completely agree.

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[–] derekbwalters 19 years ago

I don't.

Why does everybody think there exists an entity called "Hollywood"? Hollywood is in fact a district of a city, wherein motion pictures are frequently produced. It is not itself a company/cadre/coven or whatever these jew-bashing nuts think. A product is made there by many different people with divergent interests. Saying "Hollywood" in such terms is like saying that Netflix and Blockbuster are working together, or General Motors and Audi, simply because they're both in the same industry.

There is no single-voice "Mr. Hollywood" who makes decisions about what films are and aren't allowed into the United States, no more so than there is a "Mr. Automobile" telling people what car to drive. As if acrimonious business rivals - who constantly undercut each other - would inexplicably align to screw themselves out of profit.

In this case, if anything, those decisions are made by the Motion Picture Association of America, an orginization often criticized (on this site, as well as countless others) for being too conservative.

So, for all of you bigots out there who think the liberal, anti-semitism-fearing Jews are out to take your precious hard-earned money, try to think for a second: Does that really make sense, or are you just letting your paranoia get the best of you? If it's the latter, then you see the point.

If it's the former, then, well, maybe you need to reconsider who you think is obsessed with money and greed and take a look in the mirror.

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[–] kubrickation 19 years ago

<<Fellini did NOT make any propaganda films for Mussolini>>

He didn't direct them, but he did work on them.

"I will rise up"
-Radiohead

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[–] ohfukenhell 19 years ago

all_hail_thom_yorke is wrong on the sexism approach. Leni's vilification by Hollywood is the result of bad timing. She made Olympia in 1938, which recieved great critical acclaim internationally. Yet her US tour to promote the film was the year after, 1939. Hitler happened to invade Czechoslovakia while she was over there. His agenda was quite clear by this time. Jewish citizens were attacked in the Night of Broken Glass the year before. Leni's ties to the Nazi party through the making of Triumph of the Will did not put her in favourable light, particularlly with the Jewish influence on Hollywood.

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[–] kubrickation 19 years ago

Actually, it DOES have to do with sexism. Other male directors (like the ones I named) did work on propaganda films for violent dictators and they were excused because they were men, and men are allowed to have "phases" in their life where they do something less than honorable. But if a woman does it, she's marked for life. You know why people never MENTION Fellini and Rossellini's involvement in earlier propaganda films? Because no one remembers. Why don't they remember? Because it's not important for their filmmaking careers. Riefenstahl's was ruined for doing the EXACT same thing.

"I will rise up"
-Radiohead

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[–] smigrobustus 11 years ago

It was a DIFFERENT hollywood back then...

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