Sister?
What did people think of Tony's relationship wiht his sis? Was it supposed to be that suss? I found it rather unsettling...
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I don't think he was attracted to her. I just think he was overprotective.
shareNo, it in fact was implied that he was actually mixing his protective/covetous nature of his sister with personal, romantic feelings. However, the film was made in the beginning of the 1930's, incest wasn't a topic you just presented flat out in any film. They had to make it subtle, but it was just enough to give it justice that he had some incestuous feelings towards his sister, and she was blind to that, believing that he was just overprotective.
But he was attracted to her, they just couldn't tell you that in the film because back then, that would have been much too taboo.
This was before the Hayes Code. They got away with quite a lot then.
shareare we talking about the same flick????? yes it was 1932 but i thought the incest overtones were pretty blatant! when the sister caught that bullet near the end (oops i mean SPOILER ALERT) i for a second thought muni was gonna start frenching her. it was completely over the top. pre-hayes flicks are sometimes great and scarface is a prime example of why.
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It was quite obvious that they had something between them, and didn't speak of it. The mother suspected but didn't know. "Poppy" was a red herring. His true love was Cesca.
"Terror with napalm- I want ya'll to STAY calm"share
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What was the problem with the ending with Tony and his sister? He was telling her not to go and was telling her that he was going to be all alone. She tells him that he's afraid. I don't understand what was wrong with the ending. He tells her, "You're all I got left." She was. Everybody else was gone and his mother said how he wasn't her son anymore. My friends and I were watching Scarface and one of my friends said how Tony's sister was the last bit of innocence that he had left. Parents are the same way with there daughter. They always find it hard to let go when they grow up. A mother or father would probably act the same way if they saw their daughter going around with guys. Tony says I believe, "Goin around with a bunch of fellas, that's what you call fun." Later on after he punches out the guy she's dancing close to he brings her home. He says, "If I ever catch you in a place like that again I'll kill you." She says how she's not a baby anymore and all that. She was young. Only 17. People try to make something else out of this, but I still believe that Tony was just over protective. I also do not find anything wrong with how they were acting in the end. They hugged eachother when the cops were surrounding the place and when she ends up not shooting him. I guess she figured that he was still her brother. Why would the writer of this all of a sudden decide to put in incest? In the book Tony has no sister. Why would Howard Hawks want something like that in the movie?
shareThe incestual overtones are pretty obvious and were explored even further in the Pacino version.
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What are you, psychic!? Please! Something is not "obvious" because you strongly infer it. Be quiet, you! You don't got no psychic powers, man--spare me!
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Decent people shouldn't post here. They'd be happier posting somewhere else.
Ben Hecht was partly inspired by the Borgia family of renaissance Italy, as well as Armitage Trail's book. The censors grumbled loudly at this, so the film had difficulty being released.
shareI believe it was used to illustrate the nature of a psychopath/sociopath. Everything is tied to them in some way and they don't like seeing someone who's 'special' to them considering another person greater, more important etc then them. Until his sister started hanging out in the same places as Tony, she wouldn't have been elevated to the 'status', in his head, enough to be concerned about. Its all about 'them' ('me'). It could be a young lady the average mug wouldn't look at twice but when they become desirable to someone else - eg, she was getting noticed at th club, by Rafts character etc., so she had to be #1 to him ... just like he had to rise above his boss, take his girl etc. And its not a 'sexual'thing either. He wouldn't have objected to her marrying but he would have expected her to think of him as #1 still in her life - over her husband. His opinions would have to hold more weight, his jokes funnier, he would still expect to be the 'coolest' guy in the room. I'm doing a terrible job trying to articulate this but I don't wanna bog down the post with a bunch of psycho babble terminology. I worked with several sociopaths over the years (as in 'patients' - not co-workers LOL) and whenever I tried to explain how they thought to anyone unfamiliar with the diagnosis (my wife for instance) it was nearly impossible. The bottom line though is that everything is about 'them'. They have no true empathy, sympathy, sincerity either - but they do know how to act the part so as to manipulate others. He would marry the woman that was desirable to others and she would mean nothing to him other than as a possession to use as he saw fit. So, when he sees another man wooing his sister, he can't appreciate that he may be in love with her - to his mind her suitor sees the sister the same way he (Tony) sees woman ie, to use. Its an insult to him - that is all he understands. As if the suitor is insulting him like: 'Hey Tony, guess what ? I'm bangin' your sister !". Sorry to put it that crudely but this isn't MY 'take', its how his personality type would see it. His only concern for his sisters life choices is how it reflects on him. Now that shes become of 'age', these are new feelings for him. Prior to the opposite sex being interested in her, it was nothing his mind had to process. Hes taken on a pretty ambitious task by setting the entire underworld on its ear and the sister/lover bit is a distraction to him. He just reacts - if its in his way, causes him any discomfort, get rid of it. Even when he says "I didn't know' and looks all 'pained', its not empathetic pain for his sister and friend. Hes made a mistake that will have repercussions for him - and no, not the legal aspects either.
He would not have killed Raft if he knew they were married. He understands that 'marriage' changes things in the eyes of others. He would have paid for the wedding, beginning to end and it would have been a 'spare no expense' shin dig - 'cause it reflects on HIM. Instead, he *beep* up - his excuse being 'I didn't know'. Like 'knowing' would/should have made a difference (ok to murder the man shes dating ? WTF ?). I'd bet a lot of viewers didn't get the significance of that line. The scene is set up so that it appears like he screwed up because he was out of town and didn't realize they had married. But think about it - barring Raft raping his sister, its unconscionable for him to murder Raft no matter what the 'situation' ! "I didn't know"... LOL ! Well then, if you didn't know ... LOL !! *BTW, I don't mean to imply that I approve of vigilante justice but one could at least 'understand' a man loosing it when face to face with a guy that has raped his sister (just wanted to make that clear).
Yes, I'm doing a really poor job here and probably should have delayed posting until I had the time to articulate better, but the odds are I'd never get back to this thread again. So - here it is ! Maybe this post will inspire a reader to go the extra step of reading up on the personality of a sociopath. Its the only way to really understand their 'relationship'. And the extra research is a benefit to film lovers as it not only helps one to fully 'understand' Tony but similar characters in other movies and it helps to evaluate the actors/directors portrayal of such characters.
Its now just about 1pm. I was supposed to be out the door no later than 12:30 pm ...yep, shoulda waited ! Hopefully clear enough to inspire at least one person to do some extra curricular reading. I've always found them (sociopaths) to be endlessly fascinating (if not at times very scary) people!
I really appreciate your comments and enjoyed your take on this. It made me look at the relationship in a more complex way than just "incest". I got the "I didn't know" line, but had to explain it to my 23 year old son, who wouldn't have a way to realize what this meant at the time, since standards are so different now. Thanks for an interesting comment. Funny, I have The Daily Show on and the guest is talking about a new book he wrote on psychopaths. Apparently there are a lot more out there than we realize!
shareAl Pacino says in an interview that he doesn't think Tony was romantically attracted to his sister
I concur with Al Pacino's comments that Tony had no incest feelings between Tony and Cesca. In my opinion Tony had conflicting feelings in terms of morality when it came to Cesca, he advised her to 'do as I say but not as I do'. Although this was very hypocritical of Tony he must have felt that he had to be a father figure towards Cesca in order for her to stay on track.
"I'd rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not".
Al Pacino says in an interview that he doesn't think Tony was romantically attracted to his sisterI also agree, and not just because Al Pacino said that.
Seconded, yes.
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Decent people shouldn't post here. They'd be happier posting somewhere else. share
A good nonfiction book is The Sociopath Next Door.
One thing I didn't understand was when Cesca told Tony, "You're not my brother! Don't you think I know?" (during her monologue after Tony kills Guino)
Was that supposed to mean that one of them was adopted??
Maybe that was one of the changes the studio required so that it would not be quite such an incestuous desire between Tony and Cesca?
I only read the first part of this and i agree with where it's going. The 'hint' at incest is meant to be a manifestation of the gangster/socio's desire for control and ownership etc. It was also the last piece of his soul that remained uncorrupted.
I'm not sure the Borgia allusions work because Tony isn't part of some royal dynasty like the Egyptians where the wealth/pedigree is the motivating factor behind these relationships.
It's pointless to look at it like some (ab)normal brother/sister love that happens on occasion. It only gives the movie a 'pulp/soap opera' type plot point which hurts it. Like what does gangsters/organized crime got to do with Incest? Nothing at all.
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