MovieChat Forums > The General (1927) Discussion > How did Keaton not get any flack for thi...

How did Keaton not get any flack for this film?


It seems that this film would have caused a tizzy because Keaton's character is a wannabe rebel soldier. The runaway Union soldiers who steal his engine are depicted as the enemies. How did Keaton get away with this? Especially after the hysteria over Birth of a Nation. Is it because his character was not an official soldier? Because the film is too silly? Perhaps because there is no vile depiction of racist confederates? I'm not knocking this film. I'm just suprised that no one ever says it glamorizes the Confederates. No review of this film ever mentions anything about it.

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Attitudes toward the Confederacy have changed a great deal since the early 20th century. A half-century or so after the Civil War the Old South was nostalgically seen by many people [white people, that is] as romantic, glamorous, and tragic, the attitude captured by Margaret Mitchell in Gone With the Wind. Enough time had passed, I believe, for a lot of harsh reality to become sentimentalized in popular culture such as plays, movies, and novels, and the doomed citizens of Dixie were often the heroes. We all know, watching a Civil War movie, how things are going to turn out, and that the South is going to lose. Today we find that appropriate, considering the evil system the South was built on, and we might even see the Southerners as no better than the Nazis, but remember that many veterans of the Civil War were still around in the 1920s, and while a lot of people (certainly most African Americans) had a negative view of the pre-war South, there were many, many people who felt otherwise, and those sentiments lasted a long time.

I've read that Keaton and his associates felt that they couldn't have Buster playing a heroic Northern soldier because most people (at the time) wouldn't accept a Northerner as the hero. I know it seems backward to us, but that was their thinking. Even when Johnnie Grey/Buster "wins" in the end, we know that his cause is doomed, and I think that adds a significant layer of irony to The General's ostensibly happy ending.

It's also significant that, as you point out out, there is no open display of Southern racism. In fact, black people are barely visible in the film. The Birth of a Nation plunged right into the crux of race relations in the Old South and caused riots, but The General avoids the issue entirely. And wisely so, or else this wouldn't be a comedy!

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Thanks for the info. Gone With the Wind never even crossed my mind neither did the fact that Birth of a Nation is more about the Ku Klux Klan than the Confederate States. Anyways, thanks again.

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You compare Southerners to Nazis? How did you not get any flack for this?




This story is already over

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[deleted]

Let us not forget that the North had slaves well into the Civil War.
the Civil war wasnt fought over slavery.
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That's not true. There were a few southern slave states that didn't succeed from the union, but there were no slaves in the north. And the war was fought over slavery. The issue of state's rights was mostly a euphemism for slavery.

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Good grief! The word is “secede.” You did not succeed with your illiterate post. Please neuter yourself.

The North had slaves. The war was about the sovereignty of the federal government. Period. Slavery, sad to say, was an afterthought.

If you think the federal government thinks anything is as—let alone more—important than it, you need to learn how to think.

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Maybe because the movie was based in fact on the Andrews Raid from the Civil War.

Also seek out the Disney offering "The Great Locomotive Chase" based on the same incident.

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Judging by the OP's summary of the film, it seems like they watched an entirely different film than I have.

I never once thought it glamourized the Confederates. Because like many wars, there are two sides, with each side which wins some and loses some skirmishes. This particular film just depicted the South winning one skirmish. What's the big deal about that?

"Keep Ted Turner and his goddamned Crayolas away from my movie."--Welles


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First, this is not a remotely political film, unlike Birth of a Nation. Keaton could as easily have reversed the sides and made Johnny Gray into Billy Yank or Danny North without any significant changes in the plot. War comes to these people -- we don't see anyone eager for it, even though they volunteer. Watch the expression on the faces of Annabelle's father and brother when the war comes to see what I mean.

Second, Buster Keaton's character is an underdog, and therefore it makes sense to have him on the (ultimately) losing side. The losers in any conflict are always more romanticized (or, when not done well, sentimentalized) than the winners. "Of all sad words of tongue and pen / The saddest are these: it might have been" and all that. That's why there are endless literary treatments of the Boston Red Sox and Brooklyn Dodgers and comparatively few about the New York Yankees; even Damn Yankees is about the Washington Senators. Life is inevitably made up of more defeats than triumphs, so we all idenitfy more with the underdog than the overdog. In fact, if you do identify with the overdog, there almost has to be something narcissistic and over-bearing about you.

Note, also, that the Union side in The General is not particularly villainous. The Union commander is an honorable sort, and Colonel Anderson's -- I think I have the name right -- spies don't kill anyone. The worst they do is tie up Annabelle Lee, and all of us would be tempted to do that.

In short, this is a great adventure-comedy, the model for all adventure-comedies and chase films that came later. I show it to one of my classes every semester, and it gets nearly universal applause.


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History lesson 101: The Confederates weren't a bunch of warmongering slave traders, and the north weren't libertarian slave-freers. :P

But I do see your point. Lots of folks who don't know their history books view the south as evil, and it is therefore surprising that the south aren't the "baddies" in this film.

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[deleted]

Yup, for many fighting on the Confederate side they saw themselves as simply fighting for their homeland against an invader. There were abolitionists who fought on the side of the South, and people who supported the institution of slavery who fought on the North. There were black men, both free and slave, who fought on the side of the Confederacy. The Civil War was a very complex issue and no one side, North or South, could be reduced to "the good side" or "the bad side," because each side was made up of individuals who often had differing motives even on the same side.

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Indeed. :)

"Find out what to think next!"
-Chris Morris, "Brasseye"

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Because the South was right. The only ones who pitch a fit over "Birth of a Nation" are politically correct morons who need a brain transplant.

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You're kidding, right? Do you really believe that the Ku Klux Klan were a heroic group of men that saved the South from the evil Northerners?

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Nice to see that ignorance and bigotry are alive and well today. Gives me that warm, fuzzy feeling inside.

Nothing inherently wrong with rednecks, but ignorant rednecks...

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You have to remember that there were really two KKK's. The "original" which formed just after the war because the South was in chaos and there was no law and order and we were under military occupation for 12 years. Their goal was to bring back order to a lawless land and they would "go after" anyone who was a threat to their people and drive off carpet baggers. Whatever you think of them they did preserve some law and order where there was none. Remember, there were no police and you couldn't just dial 911 and most people lived on isolated farms miles from their nearest neighbor. It had really almost died out by the turn of the new century because there was no need for it. Then came the film "Birth of a Nation" which revitalized interest in it. But law and order had been restored and things were back to "normal" I guess you could say. So they needed to have a bad guy or a boogie man to stir up people and that's when, in the "new" KKK, they decided to make blacks, Jews and Catholics the bad guys. The second incarnation was really a money making scheme and the man (I forget his name)who started it again made millions from it. Also, the second KKK was nation wide, not just in the South like Hollywood constantly depicts. In the 1920s one could hardly get elected into a political office if he didn't belong to the KKK no matter what state he was in. It was that prolific. Also, before 1985 there was not this profound hatred for everything and anything Confederate or Southern. That was the year that the NAACP, in their anual meeting, decided to brand everything that had to do with the Confederacy as evil and racist and they have succeeded very well.

Hope I haven't boored anyone with my little history lesson. I just find it a very interesting subject.

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This thread's got a whole lotta Southern Revisionism goin' on.

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>>Also, before 1985 there was not this profound hatred for everything and anything Confederate or Southern. That was the year that the NAACP, in their anual meeting, decided to brand everything that had to do with the Confederacy as evil and racist and they have succeeded very well.<<

The "profound hatred for everything and anything Confederate or Southern" you speak of doesn't exist, except perhaps in the mind of a small subset of bigots.

And please provide some evidence or a reference to the "branding" you say the NAACP "decided" to do. Otherwise, you're just slandering them.


"The value of an idea has nothing to do with the honesty of the man expressing it."--Oscar Wilde

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The "profound hatred for everything and anything Confederate or Southern" you speak of doesn't exist, except perhaps in the mind of a small subset of bigots.

If you mean like in the NAACP the you are correct. I have lived in the South all my life and have see it happen over the decades from them tearing down our flags and banning our songs and now they will go after the graves of Confederate soldiers. Mark my word. This is a fact and it cannot be denied. Just try playing "Dixie" at a ball game and you will be shouted down and protested and stopped. I know this because "Dixie" WAS my schools fight song until the NAACP froced us to stop playing it. There was a Sons of Confederate bill board not too far from where I live. It wason RR property. The NAACP complained to them about the "racist" bill board so the RRhad them remove it even though it was paid for. Up at Washington and Lee one female student got them to change the name of the old "Confederate Memorial Hall" because SHE thought it was offincive to her. It's goingon all around the South bit-by-bit. They are purposfully destroying our heritage and ourway of life by branding US as intollerent and biggoted. It really makes so many of us very sad.

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tearing down our flags

Hate to break it to you, but your flag is the stars and stripes, not the stars and bars. You are a citizen of the U.S.A., not the C.S.A.

hey are purposfully destroying our heritage and ourway of life by branding US as intollerent and biggoted.

I guess it's snarky to say illiterate as well, given the spelling here.

Look, it's this simple. The southern heritage and way of life you describe -- which even now you are romanticizing -- was, at its core, evil because it was built upon slavery. Slavery is evil because it is built upon taking away another human being's freedom, and in the case of the south (as opposed to, let's say, ancient Greece) it was even more evil because it was built upon racism. Moreover, it was built upon rape. One of the events that turned people against slavery was the report that a woman who was one-eighth black -- and therefore to all appearances white -- was publicly stripped and lashed. One of the books (pre-Uncle Tom's Cabin) that most turned public opinion against slavery was the memoir by Fanny Kemble, who had been a successful British actress who had married a man who then inherited slaves. She was shocked to discover her husband raping slaves as a matter of course and divorced him, temporarily losing custody of her children as a result.

Of course most southern soldiers did not own slaves. They fought bravely to defend what they thought of as their country, which back then meant their states. But they were fighting for an evil cause, just as there were brave and decent members of the Wehrmacht who were not Nazis but who fought for their country. You can honor the men, but you cannot honor the cause. Germans today may lay wreaths on the graves of WWII soldiers, but nobody but a sociopath flies a Nazi flag. You can honor your southern ancestors as brave men, but the moment you fly a flag that represents slavery, racism, and rape, you've stepped over the line and deserve to be smacked down (metaphorically) hard.

Incidentally, I am white and my mother's family is from the south. One of my ancestors owned a few slaves -- not a large plantation, just a few household servants. As slave-owners go, he appears to have been relatively enlightened, and after the war, a couple of the older slaves, though freed, wanted to stay with him. But that does not change the inherent evil of the system.



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Okay we all know slavery is bad and we don't want it. What a lot of people don't know is that it's not what the Civil War was fought over. Slavery would not have lasted much longer had their not been a war. I believe it was a propaganda tactic.

"Hate to break it to you, but your flag is the stars and stripes, not the stars and bars. You are a citizen of the U.S.A., not the C.S.A."

The words of a conquerer.

"Look, it's this simple. The southern heritage and way of life you describe -- which even now you are romanticizing -- was, at its core, evil because it was built upon slavery. Slavery is evil because it is built upon taking away another human being's freedom, and in the case of the south (as opposed to, let's say, ancient Greece) it was even more evil because it was built upon racism."

By 1860, the entire United States was built upon it. Civilization itself was probably built upon slavery by that point, and the Civil War was hardly the last remnants of it. It was certainly the most eye-opening of the evils of racism, but labling the South as evil is both racist and hypocritical.


I don't know why people let this chapter in history get so screwed up. Look at any other historical military event in the 1800's, the USA is pretty flippn' evil, EXCEPT during the Civil War where they're portrayed as the "libertarian saviors", which I cannot accept.

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"What a lot of people don't know is that it's not what the Civil War was fought over. Slavery would not have lasted much longer had their not been a war. I believe it was a propaganda tactic. "

Then you are simply wrong, in that your beliefs are disproved by the facts.

The war began when South Carolina seceded, and in the document that stated the reasons for secession, the political leaders specifically and repeatedly name the Union's attempt to interfere with slavery as their main complaint. They define themselves as one of the "Slaveholding states." Their most explicitly detailed grievances are the northern states' refusal to return fugitive slaves. They also invoke the three-fifths clause. You can read the document here: http://avalon.law.yale.edu/19th_century/csa_scarsec.asp

Those who say the Confederacy was fighting for States' Rights or self-determination or freedom or any other noble concept are distorting the argument either willfully or through ignorance. The reason for the secession -- according to their own statements -- was to preserve their right to own slaves.

Officially, the Union fought the first two years of the war to preserve itself, not to end slavery, though the first volunteers were largely abolitionists, and Lincoln had for years (in slightly different words) said that the country couldn't continue half-slave, half-free. But from the Confederate perspective, you cannot separate secession from slavery.

When slavery would have ended is conjecture, but even if it were not economically advantageous -- which it still was and still is, since free labor is the cheapest labor of all -- the southern states were not about to free an entire population virtually equal to the white population and give them all a right to vote. That would have been political suicide. Even if slavery had ended, oppression would have continued -- as indeed it did through Jim Crow laws and so on. How many years would it have been okay for slaves to wait while slavery gradually faded away?

You can find all the legal analogies you want. A husband might say the government has no right to interfere with his marriage, and we would all tend to agree, until we find out that he thinks it is his right as a husband to beat his wife. Parents might say that they should be able to raise their kids according to their own beliefs, but that stops when we find out that they are whipping their kids with an extension cord as discipline. David Koresh claimed the Branch Davidians had a right to worship as they chose, but he was having sex with his followers' eight and nine year-old children.

Your freedom ends when you willfully inflict unnecessary harm on other human beings. For individuals, that means you go to prison for assault, battery, kidnapping, rape, attempted murder, or murder. For a state to speak about the freedom and right to keep slaves is an obscenity.

"By 1860, the entire United States was built upon it."

This is an exaggeration at best. Certainly the economic growth of the country as a whole benefited from slavery, but on a local and state level (even taking into account the New England states at one time making profit from the Triangle Trade), only the southern states were still benefiting from slavery.

But that's besides the point anyway: whether the U.S. was built upon it or not historically, by 1861 you could either be for it or against it. Being for it is evil, if the word has any meaning.

"Civilization itself was probably built upon slavery by that point,"

Again, a gross exaggeration -- but fine. Yes, Greece and Rome had slaves. Medieval Europe and Russia until the mid 19th-century had serfdom. Modern Europe had indentured servitude, which is temporary slavery. Civilization also has given us sacking cities, burning people at the stake, drawing and quartering, handing out blankets infected with smallpox to children. But all of those things ended at some point, and when they ended, things became more civilized. Saying "Civilization itself was probably built upon slavery" is an argument for stasis.

"and the Civil War was hardly the last remnants of it. It was certainly the most eye-opening of the evils of racism, but labling the South as evil is both racist and hypocritical. "

No, it's not. I didn't say white people were evil. That would be racist, and as I pointed out, most Confederate soldiers did not own slaves and one of my ancestors did. But the South, as in the Confederacy, as in the political system and not the individuals who fought for it, was evil. Most German soldiers in World War II never herded Jews, Slavs, homosexuals, and so forth into ovens. Most were patriotic men who were fighting for their country. But they were fighting -- through little to no fault of their own -- for an evil system. We can honor the men as brave or even blameless soldiers, but we cannot honor the cause.

The same is true for the Confederacy. You want to place flowers on a Confederate grave, that's fine. You want to honor your ancestor for fighting bravely, be my guest. But anyone who wants to fly a Confederate flag and make up fairy tales about how the South just wanted to be left alone (to deny people their freedom, split up families, rape women with impunity, torture human beings with brands and whips, and so on), is on the wrong side of both history and morality.

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Turnabout is fair play.

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Just reject their complaints.

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The original KKK, founded in part by Confederate General Nathan Forrest did a lot to intimidate recently freed blacks - that is why they dressed up as 'ghosts'. They were going after anyone who was a 'threat' to their way of life that existed as they had known it for decades before the Civil War. They weren't only trying to drive out the so-called carpet baggers, but also any Northern authority that was there to ensure that blacks and people who weren't pro-slavery before the war could live without fear and could vote. As soon as that ended, many blacks lost the right to vote. That KKK was fairly short lived because, for a period of time, the Federal authorities in the South tried to put it down.

You are correct about the 2nd KKK being pretty much a national organization. In the 1920s, they even had a major parade in Washington, DC,

The Sons of Confederate Veterans and the United Daughters of the Confederacy were formed, in part, to maintain monuments, museums, and cemeteries, although, that included placing monuments in places that had nothing to do with the Confederacy or even the Civil War (i.e., Montana). The effect of putting up memorials in places that did not agree with the Confederacy or secession is that future generations think that part of their heritage includes something that was the opposite of what their ancestors thought.

There has been discontent among SCV members between those who want to maintain cemeteries against those who want to revise the history of the Civil War, want to fly Confederate flags (usually the Battle Flag of the Northern Virginia Army) at court houses, schools, or any other public building. One of the outcomes of this has happened recently in Shreveport, LA where African-Americans who were called to jury duty felt intimidated because the Battle Flag of N. Virginia Army was being flown. Nothing like reminding blacks that they're still 2nd class citizens in the area like flying Confederate flags at public buildings.

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[deleted]

I like this debate, it's teaching me things and views about the American Civil War and American history I didn't know before.
It's definitely true that to fully understand the issue, you need to look at it from multiple sides.

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Americans didn't have hangups about the Civil War then as we do now.
While the institution of slavery WAS evil, this film does not deal with that aspect of southern heritage any more than Dances with Wolves does on account of the latter film featuring a Civil War vignette at the beginning. The film is a comedy, PERIOD!
Reading to much into it will only give you (& everyone else) headaches.

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[deleted]

But it's not a political film. The film makes clear that Johnny Gray couldn't care less about the Confederate cause. He tries to join only to impress his girlfriend.

Also, the historical event the film was based on (and which has obvious dramatic potential for this kind of film) involved a southern train and northern spies.

Finally, the movie doesn't work as well if Keaton's character is not an underdog, and the simple fact is that making him a Union railroad engineer would reassure the audience he is on the winning side, making it harder to see him as an underdog.

As for questioning his character, frankly, you've got a lot of nerve. In real life, Keaton was one of the few silent film directors who insisted on paying the same wages to African-American actors as to caucasian actors. In those segregated times, the studios legally had different wage scales. Keaton insisted on fair treatment.

Remember: one can only be so much more enlightened than one's era.

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