Why was it changed so much? - Die Nibelungen: Siegfried (1924) Discussion

[–] Poukram 19 years ago

It wasn't realy simpler to make a film from this opera. I don't know if you ever have seen "Der Ring der Nibelungen" e.g. in Bayreuth? It is phantastic, it is smashing! But you can't "copy" such an Opera into a silent movie, you have to change lots of scenes. A lot of parts from the original could not be taken because Lang thought that it wasn't possible to show at that time. But the movie is a very great movie at all!

Das Volk ist doof ... aber gerissen

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[–] jr_aul 19 years ago

Wagner's opera is not the original. Both it and the story for this film draw upon versions of a much older story. Nibelungenlied (Song of the Nibelungs) is one such version, dating to around the year 1200.

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[–] Poukram 19 years ago

That's right, both based upon the Nibelungenlied, the movie himself was inspired a lot by Wagners opera!

Das Volk ist doof ... aber gerissen

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[–] jessethefool 19 years ago

My textbook says different. It says Lang hated Wagner's opera and when he made the moive went more to the origional Norse myth than Wagner's opera. It's interesting because Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is also heavily based on the tale of Nibelungenlied. Tolkien also hated Wagner's opera and felt Wagner took such a great story in a wrong, more socialist dirrection.

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[–] 19 years ago

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[–] VelvetLady 18 years ago

some of you seem to get some things confused there if i may say so..... first "das niebelungenlied" isnt a norse saga its germanic. and yes there is a difference. and second wagner was all but a socialist... if some of you forgot their history, it wasnt a coincidence that wagner was hitlers favourite composer, dont think i need to say more on wagner and socialism ;-)).

but to answer ur question as good as im able: the saga was written between 1180 and 1210. then it was lost and refound in the 18th century. there are alone 36 conserved handwritten verions of it around so there isnt one original they are all different (some more some less).btu there are 3 "main" or most acceptet versions...but still of which "original" is everyone here talking?? but it is true that lang did simplify it in parts to make it not AS long (i guess, if u think how long the operas altogether take)and easier to film.

and if you feel that im completely wrong:i do have some idea of what im talking about here: first i am german, second im almost finished with my german,english, and history studies to become a teacher and we covered the niebelungenlied in history, german and guess what even in english.

rock on :-)

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] james1971 18 years ago

Jews don't like Wagner's work because, as someone wrote before, it tends to be much too strictly related with Hitler. But the Nazis had to force Wagner's works to make them say things that they didn't say. The same thing happened to this movie by Fritz Lang: the first part, with a big effort of misinterpretation, was forced to represent the (pretended) history of the German people, while the second part (The revenge of Krimhild) was hated by the Nazis themselves, because of the atmosphere of ruin and fall pervading the movie.

So, IMHO, one thing is what the Nazis tried to represent with Wagner or with Lang, and one different thing is what they really are.

By the way, the ones writing that this is a Norse saga aren't that wrong: the history of Sigfried is well known in Northern Europe as well, where he is more popular with the local name of Sigurd (if I am not totally wrong about this!)

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[–] VelvetLady 18 years ago

One doesn't need to be jewish to dislike Wagner ;-) And i competely agree with you james: "So, IMHO, one thing is what the Nazis tried to represent with Wagner or with Lang, and one different thing is what they really are." but with Wagner its not only a question of the Nazis wanting his work to fit in their world-concept but also what Wagner HIMSELF said about Jews, it wasn't only the Nazis re-interpreting his work to be something it's not but Wagners own opinion on the matter. To check up on Wagners antisemitism i looked up a few helpful sites if anyones interested....

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semitism/Wagner.html
http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/wagner/general-faq/section-18.html

I think they give a good overview on what a kind of guy Wagner was. Btw I just want to make also clear that although i personally do not like Wagner, for several reasons, I would never in anyway doubt that he was a great musician. :-)
But i totally agree on you saying that they absolutely misinterpreted Lang's work, considering his mother was jewish and he fled Germany when the Nazis gained power.

~*°Real diamonds! They must be worth their weight in gold!°*~

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] VelvetLady 18 years ago

LMAO!
"Not to mention jewish people in general are "super-ultra" pruod, and when someone say something against their way of life, they just say you are wrong, and you have to change"

That genuinly describes most americans attitude (not saying all and not trying to generalize, or offend anyone here I know and like American as a country and there are certainly nice americans, and im saying all this with as we say: " a winking and a crying eye") People who criticize America hear exactly that (and if i may be a little cynical here and I DO point out that this is a half-joke: most nations who critizise America have either bombs in their backyard a few hours later ;-)) or are said to be in the terror-alliance, so happened: Rumsfeld said Germany was in league with Syria and Cuba after the germans didn't send troops to Iraque). And you also don't seem to have read my last post: WAGNER WAS AN ANTISEMITE! He wrote antisemitic stuff HIMSELF, and i have no problems prooving that just follow the links in my last post.. So i can understand why Jews aren't happy about him. I don't mean this as hard as it may sound but you really sound like a pretty ignorant person that u can't understand that Jews don't like Wagner and don't seem to know his biography, else you couldnt say such ignorant, superfluous comments. Not even beginning to talk about those horrific comments you made about the Jews else I'd never stop ranting lol.
And just a few words to your last comment: "No develope at all.Just some lights, some smoke effects, and semi-nude girls, and there you have your box office." that describes more than half of the american/Hollywood productions ALL together. From all movies produced anywhere around the world at least 2/3s are sh**. And they weren't all done by Jews. And same goes for most music that is produced. It's not good. Not only Jews can write bad music , everyone else can too lol (I'm not mentioning Kevin Federline, no I'm not, no I'm not lol).

Just for the record: I'm not jewish, I'm an agnostic protestant :-))

~*°Real diamonds! They must be worth their weight in gold!°*~

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[–] VelvetLady 18 years ago

Ok maybe I should have looked your messaging profile up before i put that message nicolas. Then i wouldn't have bothered. Especcialy after I saw your post on "Der Triumph des Willens" that just blew my top. Just one friendly advice: read up on your german history before you talk about stuff you obviously have no clue about i.e.: german people/nazis, when you don't know ANYTHING on their background (as proven with Wagner and Riefenstahl ["Der Triumph des Willens" is a propaganda film oderdered by Hitler so of course it does NOT show how people in Germany at that time "really felt" as you said, that you can take a pure propaganda film as reality actually does worry me!]). And please don't post you opinion on Jews, go to some site where people share your opinion.

~*°Real diamonds! They must be worth their weight in gold!°*~

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] VelvetLady 18 years ago

Hmm obviously you only read 2 lines of what i wrote as well lol. And guess what...actually being a german it put me in situations where I had to deal with the real people who lived at that time, hmmm let's think, like 100 times more than you did?? Why don't I just mention the few that were closest to me?!: my grandfather who lost a leg at Stalingrad, my grandmother who had to flee pregnant from Poland to west-germany when the troops came there and she got her child on the run, then theres some far distant-uncle of mine who sold out his parents who were communists to the SS, another uncle who was 10 years in a russian gulak (here I'll explain that to you: its a working camp for captured soldiers, his was in Siberia) or an aunt of mine that was raped by the russians. AND THAT IS JUST MY FAMILY! So don't you dare tell me I lack personal experience with people from that time, that is just laughable!
Funny also that you give NO response whatsoever, to what i said about your ridiculous thoughts on Jews, you just picked out ONE statement from me and talk about that. Or that you give no response whatsoever on the bull**** you said about Wagner.... Maybe YOU ought to read a few more books, maybe that would help you. Though you seem to condemn books because "most are as fake as the propaganda of hitlers regime. " that comment alone...well good to know you don't believe in written down history. Funny that really. And you know what? You sound like all those left-over Nazis running around here in germany: "Hitler wasn't that bad....lok he gave work to all the people, united the germans and built the first motorways" Seriously, you accuse ME, a german, living in germany, with a big german family, that lived through all those years....some on the good side (no thats not Hitler), and some on the bad, all with unique terrible lives, and you accuse me, who studies history (and fyi that doesnt only mean reading books, obviously you have no idea what working scientifically means, so that makes it obvious you have never seen a University on the inside)., so you accuse me of having no clue about what went on in germany during that time??? Because that's what your comment boils down to.
And how, I may ask you, can you comment on a movie (a propaganda-movie financed by Hitler as i may point out again) THAT YOU HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN WHOLE?? lol and you accuse me of beeing a bookworm that has no clue about what you call reality....I'm just happy I don't have to live in your precious little world that you see as reality!

~*°Real diamonds! They must be worth their weight in gold!°*~

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[–] 18 years ago

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[–] tom_amity 18 years ago

Just to answer some of the questions asked on this thread:

(1) Lang's film Siegfried is not based on Wagner's opera by the same title; the opera is the third part of Wagner's four-opera cycle Der Ring des Nibelungen, and it happens that the film and the opera are based on two different versions of the legend of Siegfried (also known as Sigurd). It's a very ancient legend with lots of renditions, most modernly a poem by William Morris.

(2) Wagner's work is adapted largely from the Norse version of the legend (The Volsunga Saga, other sagas, and the Eddas); Lang's version is adapted largely from the later German version of the legend (The Nibelungenlied).

(3) One of the biggest differences between the Norse and German versions of the Siegfried/Sigurd story is that the characters in the version used by Wagner include the pagan gods Odin, Frigg, Freyja, Thor and Frey (whom Wagner calls by German variants of their names, i.e. Wotan, Fricka, Freia, Donner and Froh), that Siegfried/Sigurd is a mortal descendant of the gods, and that Brunhild herself is a minor goddess, one of the warrior-maidens (Valkyries) who serve Odin. The Nibelungenlied, by contrast, has a Christian setting, although magic and enchantment rather than religion is prominent, and the heroes and heroines are super-heroic humans rather than demigods.

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[–] michaelstep2004 15 years ago

Let's clarify several points:

1. It simply isn't true that "Jews don't like Wagner." Make that "Some Jews..." Yes, Wagner's music is banned by orchestras in Israel because of its association with Hitler and the Nazis -- but many Jews have been great exponents of Wagner, both in the 19th century and today. Daniel Barenboim, for example, led many great performances of the Wagner operas at Bayreuth from the 1970s on. Wagner himself -- an open anti-Semite who published writings about the corrupting influence of Jews in music -- chose the Jewish conductor Hermann Levi to lead the premiere of "Parsifal" at Bayreuth in 1882. Great Jewish conductors such as Otto Klemperer, Bruno Walter and composer/conductor Gustav Mahler (among others) were major champions of Wagner's music. Why? Because the music is much, much greater than the man.

2. In his early years, Wagner certainly WAS a Socialist. He was a prominent socialist revolutionary who had to flee Saxony after the failed revolution of 1848, and lived in exile from Germany for more than a decade, until King Ludwig of Bavaria came to his rescue. One of the most famous books written about Wagner's Ring cycle is George Bernard Shaw's "The Perfect Wagnerite," which interprets the story as an allegory about the evils of capitalism (symbolized by the golden ring which is central to the story) -- an interpretation upon which the famous Patrice Chereau production of The Ring at Bayreuth in the 1970s was based.

Clearly, in his old age Wagner eschewed socialism for German nationalism. But, in reality, for his entire life he was only ALL ABOUT HIMSELF. Terrible man, and very great composer.

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[–] KingofWayne66 18 years ago

if some of you forgot their history, it wasnt a coincidence that wagner was hitlers favourite composer, dont think i need to say more on wagner and socialism ;-)).

you're an idiot. the nazi regime was fascist, the polar opposite of socialism.

You're sayin' I'm a clown here to *beep* amuse you?
-Joe Pesci, Goodfellas

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[–] PhrenicGermal 18 years ago

Actually, the facists were Italian.

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[–] teutonicknight 17 years ago

"you're an idiot. the nazi regime was fascist, the polar opposite of socialism."

If someone is idiot it is you.

Fascism is an Italian "discovery" and therefore this political agenda was in Italy (and Spain) in 1930's and 40's.

Germany took some of fascist ideas mixed it with pure SOCIALISM and made nazism (National Socialism). NSDAP stands for Nazionale Socialistische Deutche Arbeits Partei (spelling) That is National Socialist German Labour Party. Its views on economy was purely socialist.

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[–] Pharaoh-in-de-Nile 16 years ago

I wish people wouldn't mix up German and Germanic. Norse are North Germanic, English, Germans, Dutch...etc...are West Germanic, and the East Germanic branch has dies out (that's Burgundians, Goths, Vandals...etc...).

And in Norse Siegfried was known as Sigruðr (originally) and Sigurðr (later on), we don´t know the English form however his father Siegmund (Norse: Sigmund) is mentioned in Beowulf and is called Sigemund. The myth of the Wälsungs/Wælsings/Völsungs seems to have been well known throughout the Germanic world.

"Nothings gonna change my world!"

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[–] Aulic Exclusiva 14 years ago

Wagner was a revolutionary and in 1848 had to flee his native Saxony one step ahead of the Royal Saxon police.

Adolf Hitler's love for Wagner's music had absolutely nothing to do with Wagner's politics.

Snobbery is a form of romanticism, the chastity of the perfectionist

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[–] PhrenicGermal 18 years ago

Actually, the film is based on the book, and is pretty accurate to the book. It was the Opera that took so many liberties.

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[–] tom_amity 16 years ago

PhrenicGermal is right. Lang's film takes not many liberties with its source (the Nibelungenlied, which is the German version of the legend), but follows it pretty closely. Wagner's opera cycle takes a LOT of liberties with its primary source, (the Volsunga Saga, which is the Nordic Scandinavian version of the legend).

The best modern retelling of the tale is adapted from the Volsunga Saga, and written by William Morris. It's a long poem titled Sigurd the Volsung. Morris follows the Volsunga Saga very closely.

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