why did god never condemn slavery? and endorsed it by creating rules to support it
kinda speaks for itself. why could he make rules condemning the mundane like eating shellfish, but couldn't once say slavery was a bad thing?
sharekinda speaks for itself. why could he make rules condemning the mundane like eating shellfish, but couldn't once say slavery was a bad thing?
shareWhy are you an idiot and why does the site continue to allow you to be an idiot?
shareWhy don’t you just say that you Don’t have a answer?
shareSome context behind my comment: the OP is a known troll who has me on ignore, so he can't read what I wrote to him.
shareHow is he a troll? This is a legitimate question. Does not liking what someone says make them a troll now?
shareNot just this post. He has a history of it. I started a post about all the stupid private messages he sent me.
https://moviechat.org/bd0000082/Politics/6298e2df1348d87f85fa4c34/Revealed-Take-a-guess-which-MovieChat-user-sent-me-these-PMs
Why are you posting a private conversation? I thought those were meant to be private.
shareBecause all it was was insults and he didn't want to post them publically to get backlash.
shareSo you posted his half of private conversation so he could get publicly bashed.
I don’t understand how you aren’t embarrassed about doing something that makes you look so insecure.
You didn’t post your side at all so there is no context. You posted the name calling because it hurt your feelings. It’s not a bad thing to be sensitive and I’m sorry this person hurt your feelings but it’s the internet.
That’s going to happen a lot on the internet champ, don’t let it get to ya.
It's not about hurting feelings, he didn't hurt my feelings. We argued on the regular threads and he cowardly took to the private messages to avoid being attacked by other users. If you look at the link I sent you, you could see that people actually guessed why sent me those messages before I finally revealed the answer.
shareRockaway, (40 posts), gives internet advice to Samoanjoes (28,578 posts). lol.
By the way, Samoa is 100% right about "leodecrapio".
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God would not have any interest in human affairs. Slavery is nothing compared to what other animals do.
shareummm what.....didnt he send himself/his son to die cause he so loved us?
shareYes God came down among us in human form and allowed us to brutally torture and murder him so that he could cleanse us of our sins. Why is that so difficult to understand ?
sorry my bad I just thought an all powerful god could like maybe forgive us by himself.. without having to do that. wouldn't what happened to jesus just have confirmed the brutality of humanity and led god not to wipe away our sin?
jeez none of this makes sense!
Jesus took the punishment for the sins of the elect. Sin is so serious in God's eyes, this was what was required to save the elect from eternal punishment.
sharegod created sin and evil
again so god sacrificed himself to himself to "take our sin"?!?
God didnt create evil. He gave angels and men the ability to choose between evil and good. He suffered and died on the cross to atone for the sins of those he saves.
shareIf god knows past, present and future. and created everyone., he created Lucifer and the humans knowing exactly what action they would do. meaning he created them knowing the timeline and events they would follow.
alswo
Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.”
Which makes sense. given the pre New Testament refined version of god. where he is jealous, violent, vengeful and a mass genocider. this is what happens when you have a piece of fiction written by humans.
"He suffered and died on the cross to atone for the sins of those he saves."
EVIDENCE PLEASE
The better translation is calamity/chaos. The preceding line says I form light and create darkness. They oppose eachother. Evil is not the opposite of peace. Also James 1:13-15 says sin does not come from God nor does he tempt people to sin.
share Context Crossref Comm Hebrew
Verse (Click for Chapter)
New International Version
I form the light and create darkness, I bring prosperity and create disaster; I, the LORD, do all these things.
New Living Translation
I create the light and make the darkness. I send good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.
English Standard Version
I form light and create darkness; I make well-being and create calamity; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
Berean Study Bible
I form the light and create the darkness; I bring prosperity and create calamity. I, the LORD, do all these things.
King James Bible
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
New King James Version
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace and create calamity; I, the LORD, do all these things.’
New American Standard Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.
NASB 1995
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
NASB 1977
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the LORD who does all these.
Amplified Bible
The One forming light and creating darkness, Causing peace and creating disaster; I am the LORD who does all these things.
Christian Standard Bible
I form light and create darkness, I make success and create disaster; I am the LORD, who does all these things.
yaaa the bible likes to contradict itself I know. its almost like its man made nonsense. :) its why you ran away like a. bitch when I provided you quotes about slavery after you tried to justify it. again amazing how the religious will give up their basic human morals to justify the horendeous "cause the bible tells me so"
I'm not a Christian but that is BASED.
All of Human history (and life itself, really) is nothing but death and suffering. Why is slavery considered so much worse than all the other evils in the world?
1. its not about slavery being so much worse. its why would a god condone something so evil
2.god also put in place rules trying to bad "all the other evils of the world" like murder. yet not slavery? thats the point
Because slavery in the OT isnt what it is now. Slaves of that time were people in debt (bondservants), that worked to pay off their debts since institutional financing and banking as we know it today didnt exist. They werent slaves that were exploited which is what modern day slavery is.
share"Slaves of that time were people in debt (bondservants), that worked to pay off their debts since institutional financing and banking as we know it today didnt exist."
except they all weren't. the bible literally instructs to "buy slaves from the heathens around you"
HEBREW SLAVES AND HEATHEN SALVES WERE NOT THE SAME.
yes it was its own form of exploitative slavery
wow another christians who doesnt know his own bible. im shocked.. shocked I say
Leviticus 25:44. “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Numbers 31 :“And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves
Peter 2:18
“Household slaves, submit to your masters with all reverence not only to the good and gentle ones but also to the cruel.”
exodus 21: 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”
buy slaves from heathens. own them and pass them down. beat them but dont kill them. attack the midianites and take their virgin girls. kill the women who have known man. obey your masters even cruel ones.
it sounds like a holiday! barely an inconvenience. will you be my slave?
Im not in a position to be a slave but if I were one, I would submit to the will of whoever my master was as instructed by the Bible.
shareLOL so giving up all morals and humanity "cause the bible tells me so"
this is what religion does to the logical human. how disgusting
False equivalence. Submission is not "giving up your morals".
shareso the nazis didnt give up their morals? Japan in ww2 didnt give up their morals?
you have nothing clown
its why when I gave you the quotes on slavery you ran away
Nazis? Japanese? What in the world are you on about?
share"Submission is not "giving up your morals"."
the idea that if its "submission" to a thing, entity or belief its not "giving up morals" is nonsense
notice though how you are trying to change the subject though away from slavery and all the quotes I gave you.
wow a disingenuous lying christian. big surprise.
so ill refocus you
Leviticus 25:44. “‘Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. 45 You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property. 46 You can bequeath them to your children as inherited property and can make them slaves for life, but you must not rule over your fellow Israelites ruthlessly.
Numbers 31 :“And kill every woman who has slept with a man, but save for yourselves
Peter 2:18
“Household slaves, submit to your masters with all reverence not only to the good and gentle ones but also to the cruel.”
exodus 21: 20 “Anyone who beats their male or female slave with a rod must be punished if the slave dies as a direct result, 21 but they are not to be punished if the slave recovers after a day or two, since the slave is their property.”
so where's the bondsman debt slavery anywhere in that?
https://www.compellingtruth.org/slavery-Old-Testament.html
shareLOOOLLLLLL
"Slavery in the Old Testament was very different and involved a variety of methods, situations, and restrictions. But the Old Testament is clear about capturing people and selling them as chattel: kidnapping was a crime punishable by death (Exodus 21:16)."
yes random kidnapping was illegal. just as it was in antebellum south. Hebrews were encouraged to take virgin female from their enemy (I forget which tribe) as sex slaves. they were also encouraged to "buy slaves from the heathens around you"
God did allow slavery, but He allowed it for a simple purpose: to help the poor survive.
you sure do run away from the difficult questions when I expose your ignorance :) classic christians :) spread lies, not know their own bible, cherry pick and run away when they get called out.
shareNa. I tend to run from prideful people that dont really wish to engage, but use argument from repetition, ad hominem fallacies.
Its up to God to regenerate your depraved heart not me. I will keep you in prayers though.
lol so "my magic sky daddy will show you im right"
you had to go to the most pathetic arguement first I see!
haha stay borderline insane talking to your imaginary friend.
ohh and a disgusting human for justifying slavery, how disgusting of you
The mundane rules like not eating shellfish were from the Old Testament days. Think of it as a younger, less experienced God still seeing what he can do. The New Testament doesn’t have rules like that.
As for slavery, it would be more accurate to call them servants, and God said that they should not be abused, but treated well. Stuff like that was legal and normal back then.
Slavery as we know it, such as what the Jews endured under the Egyptians, was condemned, and there’s a whole arc called Exodus about freeing them so that they could start a new and better life elsewhere.
"The mundane rules like not eating shellfish were from the Old Testament days. Think of it as a younger, less experienced God still seeing what he can do. The New Testament doesn’t have rules like that.
"
|which makes no sense. god isnt in time. god knows everything, every action and all things. this is utter nonsense and shows the contradiction of Christianity
"As for slavery, it would be more accurate to call them servants, and God said that they should not be abused, but treated well. Stuff like that was legal and normal back then."
NOPE they were slaves. human chattel you had permission to beat, as long as they didnt die within 2 days. then you got a fine! you owned them and passed them down as property to your kids
"Slavery as we know it, such as what the Jews endured under the Egyptians, was condemned, and there’s a whole arc called Exodus about freeing them so that they could start a new and better life elsewhere."
There were no mass jewish slaves in Egypt. there may have not even been a single one. the whole story was made-up.
AND? yes religious texts of all sorts are full of "that thing is bad when it happens to our people. but god orders us to do it to others".
which makes no sense. god isnt in time. god knows everything, every action and all things
NOPE they were slaves. human chattel you had permission to beat
There were no mass jewish slaves in Egypt
yes religious texts of all sorts are full of "that thing is bad when it happens to our people. but god orders us to do it to others"
I'm not speaking as a Christian, but as someone on the outside trying to find an explanation than can satisfy non-Christians. God seems all-knowing and timeless to his creations, much like how an author seems all-knowing to his characters. But the author only knows what story he's trying to tell, where it begins and ends. When he starts writing it, he'll be amateurish, but as he writes more stories, his writing will improve.
Or you could say there was a scientific reason people couldn't eat shellfish at the time, which God knew of but the people wouldn't understand yet, so it was easier to just make it a law instead of just explaining the harms of eating shellfish with their primitive bodies, tools, and skillsets.
Nothing in the bible encouraged or permitted masters to beat their slaves. If the master beats or intentionally tries to kill the slave, the master is punished. If the slave's death was unintentional and within a time frame, they pay a fine. That might seem odd by our modern standards.
Whether you believe it happened or not is irrelevant, especially since you probably don't believe anything in the bible anyway. Slavery in that story resembles slavery as it's known today, and it was condemned. Servitude to a master and finishing your duties to him was practiced and regulated, even if those duties continue into your master's children, but suffering abuse from your master was not permitted. .
this makes NO FUCKING SENSE God didn't get "better at writing"
reading is hard huh? again this make NO SENSE people have deadly allergies to almost every food
tell me you dont actually know the bible without telling me you dont know the bible
It was just a comparison to illustrate a point, my guy. A Christian would unquestionably see God as all-knowing and all-seeing, but a non-believer wouldn't. So a non-believer would need see him in a way that makes sense for him/her. There's the author comparison, the clock-maker comparison, etc. An author is all-knowing about the story he's writing, but that doesn't mean he's gonna start off perfect. Time to the writer is different to time in the story he's writing, but he still experiences time, he still gains experience and improves. If I was trying to convert you, I'd tell you God is perfect and omniscient and stuff, but I'm not.
"Almost every food"? Exaggerating doesn't help your argument, buddy. Besides, that was just one guess, just as God starting off immature was a guess.
But we're getting off topic which was why didn't he condemn slavery. Slavery back then was very different to slavery of the last few centuries.
Did you even fully read all the quotes in your link? Let alone the Bible? lol
“If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free, without paying anything." Does that sound like modern slavery to you? You really think the American Democrats or African slavers just let their slaves go after a short period of time? Again, laws back then were very different than now, morals back then were different to our morals now. If slaves misbehaved or rebelled, they were beaten, but masters were not encouraged or permitted to sadistically abuse them, let alone kill them. There were some cruel masters, but slaves were told to finish out their contract to any master, that's not the same as saying it's ok for masters to be cruel.
Yes saying “my slavery is good because its not as bad as their slavery” is not an argument.
No no no no. it didn’t happen. Israeli archeologists have looked.
When did I say that?
The whole point of the story was freeing the slaves so that they could have a better life, and that that kind of behavior would not be tolerated. What was widely practiced and regulated was something closer to servants and servitude. But all the translations use the term "slave" so that's what I have to use in these discussions for consistency’s sake.
The Midianites, along with many other clans, were said to be terrible people and were enemies of the Israelites. However, some Midianites, like the Kenites, were allied with the Israelites. Enemies were either killed or enlsaved, while allies were treated like equals.
I never said "my slavery is good because its not as bad as their slavery".
What I said was slavery in Biblical times was legal and heavily regulated. Slaves that rebelled and misbehaved were dealt with, but malicious abuse and murder of slaves was punished. There were cruel masters back then, but it was not the norm, nor was it encouraged or permitted. While non-Hebrew slaves may have been treated differently, that doesn't mean it was acceptable for them to be treated worse. There are passages in the Torah stating how non-Hebrew slaves were to be treated well and not over-worked or humiliated.
Modern slavery is immoral and inhuman, and the legality was questionable even back then, so much so that countries fought to end it. Your notion of slavery is not like how slavery was in Biblical times for the most part, except in examples like Exodus were it was clearly condemned.
You're taking quotes out of context and misinterpreting them, as if on purpose. You're judging ancient cultures with a modern lens which isn't practical. Laws and morals change all the time, what you think is right today won't be right a few decades from now, let alone centuries or millennia. It wouldn't be fair for someone in the future to judge you, would it?
But you seem to have your mind already made up and would rather have a heated debate than a genuine discussion. If you want to learn and be open-minded, great, but if you want to stick to your pre-conceived notion of the Bible and behave immaturely, then you're just wasting time.
"he Midianites, along with many other clans, were said to be terrible people and were enemies of the Israelites. However, some Midianites, like the Kenites, were allied with the Israelites. Enemies were either killed or enlsaved, while allies were treated like equals.
"
so you get to enslave "terrible people"
wait you said it wasn't pro slavery?? and of course every single document from every single tribe or state in history said that about their enemies. they always said that "our enemies are terrible"
"What I said was slavery in Biblical times was legal and heavily regulated. Slaves that rebelled and misbehaved were dealt with, but malicious abuse and murder of slaves was punished."
only if they lost an eye or tooth. You could literally beat them SO BADLY that they could be in mortal danger. only if they died in the first 2 days was that punishable. more than that you were okay.
"Modern slavery is immoral and inhuman, and the legality was questionable even back then, so much so that countries fought to end it. Your notion of slavery is not like how slavery was in Biblical times for the most part, except in examples like Exodus were it was clearly condemned."
So is biblical. you've just given up your humanity to defend the indefensible. how disgusting
"You're taking quotes out of context and misinterpreting them, as if on purpose"
HAWHAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAH show me were im misinterpreting them PLEASE? ill wait
you are a disgusting person. honestly man stay off movie chat. you say disgusting things and slander others. what a sad liar.
🙄😒
Slander is oral, you’re thinking of libel, and you’re one to talk. You’re accusing me of things I didn't say. All I did was tell you what the Bible and Torah said back in the day, which reflects nothing about my own morals and humanity of which you tried to defame. Clearly you're here to troll, and so you will be treated like a troll.
Nope you said I left context out and misrepresented. I asked you what I msirepresented? and here you are not telling me. soo you are a pathetic liar
shareHe didn't. You have misunderstood the Apostle Paul's writings and what was written in the jewish law in the old testament. The law in the old testament was not like the slavery that existed in America. It specifically states that if someone owes someone else money and can't pay it, they are to become a slave for a period of time to work off the debt. That was how it was.
As for Paul's writings, Paul did not condone slavery. He was just writing to Christians to treat each other well. This included people that both owned slaves and people who were slaves. He wasn't a ruler of a country who could make slavery against the law. In fact, he was in prison durring the time he wrote those letters that make up a majority of the New Testament.
As far as I am concerned, God does not condone slavery. It's a thing that exists because of Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden of Edon. Of course most people on here don't believe in God and are vehemently against anyone who does.
"You have misunderstood the Apostle Paul's writings and what was written in the jewish law in the old testament."
Paul condones slavery implicitly by not condemning it. Paul condemns and calls out a litany of "sins" but slavery is never one of them.
"The law in the old testament was not like the slavery that existed in America. It specifically states that if someone owes someone else money and can't pay it, they are to become a slave for a period of time to work off the debt. That was how it was."
I've heard this Christian Reconstructionist (CR) apologetic before. The trouble is that it attempts to justify the immoral act of owning people as property (slavery). Owning people as property is immoral. Period. Treating people as mere property is wrong. When you accept the premise that it’s ok to own people as property, that allows immoral rules about that ownership, such as slaves are allowed to be beaten as long as they don’t die within a couple of days (Exodus 21:20-21) and that they may be passed down as a inheritance to future generations (Lev. 25:46), etc.
The CR view attempts to intellectualize the brutality in order to justify slavery but to no avail. You don't need to be smart to understand Biblical slavery, it just takes empathy to condemn it.
"As far as I am concerned, God does not condone slavery. It's a thing that exists because of Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden of Edon."
Whenever the story of Adam and Eve is invoked it's hard for me to keep a straight face. The thought of a naked couple and a talking snake being used to explain, justify, rationalize anything in the real world leaves me speechless.
Like I said though, Paul is in prison when he writes most of those things. While not directly addressing the immorality of it, he himself can't do anything about it. Personally the way I look at it, slavery came from the fall. I firmly believe God is not okay with it but allowed it. Just like he didn't condone the Israelites having multiple wives and concubines but allowed it. Truth be told most of the old testament, everyone is far morally from where they should be.
shareMost Christians and Jews point to the creation story as evidence that God bestowed upon every person the gift of moral freedom. Most early Christians have noted what this implied socially: that slavery is not a natural condition, but an artificial and sinful human invention. But that was courtesy of Augustine and to my knowledge never conveyed by Paul. Yet neither Paul nor Augustine advocated abolishing slavery; instead, both, like the Stoic philosophers, urged slaves to use their moral freedom to overcome the hardships of servitude.
The point is, if "God is not okay with it" as you phrased it, why wasn't it condemned? By "allowing it" God is condoning the practice. As I mentioned earlier there is a litany of "sins" expressly forbidden yet slavery is not one of them.
Frankly I feel this conversation is pointless as you obviously aren't Christian and vehemently oppose the bible, but frankly I do not believe God thought it was good. Frankly I think the TC, Leonardo, and you are packs of fools looking at books written thousands of years ago from a 2022 perspective instead of the perspective of when they were written. And it's stupid.
Edit: And I dislike people looking at books from over 100 years ago from a 2022 perspective too.
It's obvious you want to excuse your god for failing to condemn one of the very most evil things to ever exist. And you've failed. Miserably.
The only thing you're correct about is that this conversation is pointless. It always is with phonies like you.
[deleted]
Paul isnt the only writer on slavery, im not basing it off his alone. Also Paul never criticized slavery. nor did god anywhere in the Old Testament. Also Paul isnt Jesus, who never condemned it. also Paul said
"Slaves, you must obey your earthly masters. Show them great respect and be as loyal to them "
"The law in the old testament was not like the slavery that existed in America. It specifically states that if someone owes someone else money and can't pay it, they are to become a slave for a period of time to work off the debt. That was how it was."
wow another christen who doesnt know his own bible! this wasnt the only slavery in the Old Testament. jews were ordered to "seek slaves from the heathens around you". and ordered by god to in war "slaughter the men and boy, and take the girls who advent known a man"
"" He wasn't a ruler of a country who could make slavery against the law. In fact, he was in prison durring the time he wrote those letters that make up a majority of the New Testament."
which means??? nothing? the point isnt that these humans have to be in positions of power to change a thing. they are writing on what god wants.that argument makes zero sense
"As far as I am concerned, God does not condone slavery. It's a thing that exists because of Adam and Eve sinning in the Garden of Edon. Of course most people on here don't believe in God and are vehemently against anyone who does."
except he does. he never outlawed it. and in fact, according to the bible, prescribed rules on how to do it. yess we are against people who make massive claims without evidence. which you did this entire post
people dont appreciate when others say "yaaa I have no evidence, but I now a god exists and I know what he wants and his rules and you need to live by them"
or in this case, defend the indefensible and claim the bible doesnt say what it says it does by talking about Paul who doesnt support you! then ignoring all the other parts against you. disingenuousness and lying isnt a trait people like, and Christians do it a lot
Because it's all a giant load of made-up hooey.
shareIn the time in which the bible was written, eating shellfish could endanger people. They didn't understand shellfish allergies, etc., and knew that some people ate it and died. Slavery is not really a right or wrong thing, and at that time was the norm.
shareand how did clothes of more than one material.
your shellfish argument is total BS. humans had other allergies too. if god told them not to eat every food humans had allergies to, the list of food would be almost nothing, and humans would have died out.
No it is a wrong thing. just the people who wrote the bible accepted it and condoned it so they didnt criticize it.
also so was military conquest and taking your enemies virgin girls while slaughtering the men. I guess thats okay? which god commanded
You're caught up in your modern interpretation of right and wrong. What made sense to people 3000+ years ago is primitive by today's standards, but they were doing the best they could with the knowledge they had.
And the shellfish idea is merely and educated guess, as would one about it being okay to eat some meat, but not pork, based on how bacteria infects pork compared to beef or lamb. The bottom line is that while we don't know for certain, we can at least try to make sense of it rather than judging ancient people for their lack of modern scientific knowledge.
No, no im not. timeframe has nothing to do with something being wrong. im posting out the ridiculousness of what you said and what the bible says. and it cant be both. it cant be both the word of god, and "well that was how they felt". nice try though kid :)
that was an educated guess? educated guess? REALLLY?
if we dont know, dont say you so. and dont say such dumb shit like you do. you are face planting here hard
That's why the Krist slave decided to do something about it and ended up in this Dreamworld with Hollywood and the movie companies. You have to take action in Existence and get the Judgment result from God.
share