MovieChat Forums > Donald Trump Discussion > Why do liberals want a possible repeat o...

Why do liberals want a possible repeat or growth of MS-13/M18?


Some backstory:
Los Angeles was more conservative than liberal from the 1920’s to the 1950’s but it was more of a economic than a social conservatism.

Most of it's residents before 1950 were native-born Protestants from the Mid-West, Texas and other Western states which helps explain why LA was capital of Country-Western music up until the late 1950’s.

Then, starting during WW 2, every race and ethnic group became increasingly represented and internal migration was from a wider variety of states.

And by the end of the 1960’s, LA was a strongly Democratic city and it has continued to move further in that direction during this century.

-----------------------

The Maras emerged out of 1960's El Salvadoran gangs, and then spread to the Los Angeles in the 1980's through refugees from the country's violent civil war, and from illegal Salvadoran immigrants in the United States of America. It may have spread to Honduras from Hondurans in the US. Salvadoran youths were not readily accepted by other Hispanics, and particularly Mexicans in the area and were often attacked by these countries owned gangs.

The Salvadoreans formed MS-13 and M18 as a means of protecting themselves from other street gangs. They become deadly rivals, and like any gang of serious criminals became involved in committing crimes such as drug, human, and weapons trafficking, ambushing, arson, assault, assassinations, attempted murder, bank fraud, bank robberies, beheading, body part dismembering and severing, bombings, burglary, cargo theft, carjacking, car theft, cheque forgery and fraud, contract killing, copyright infringement, conspiracy, counterfeiting, credit card fraud and theft, drive-by shootings, extortion, fencing stolen property, home invasion, identity document forgery, identity fraud, identity theft, illegal gambling, illegal immigration, interstate and foreign transport of stolen property, larceny, kidnapping, manslaughter, mail fraud, money laundering, murder, organized retail crime, people smuggling, prostitution, protection racket, racketeering, rape, receipt of stolen property, robberies, sending threatening communications through in interstate commerce, theft, torture, trafficking in stolen goods and cars, truck hijacking, vandalism, wire fraud, witness intimidation, and witness tampering.

-----------------------

Tens of thousands of Salvadorans, Guatemalans, and Hondurans, many of them unaccompanied minors, have arrived in the United States in recent years, seeking asylum from the region’s skyrocketing violence.

The number of asylum seekers worldwide originating from the Northern Triangle reached 110,000 in 2015, a five-fold increase from 2012. Unaccompanied minors accounted for much of this surge. Migrants from all three countries cite violence, forced gang recruitment, and extortion, as well as poverty and lack of opportunity, as their reasons for leaving. While Belize, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama have reported a sharp increase in flows from the Northern Triangle since 2008, most migrants are passing through to settle in the United States. In 2015, the latest year for which data is available, as many as 3.4 million people born in El Salvador, Guatemala, and Honduras were living in the United States, more than double the estimated 1.5 million people in 2000. About 55 percent of them were undocumented.

-----------------------
-----------------------

My thoughts:
These sanctuary cities that harbored the illegals in the first place later deported the most violent criminals (rather than executing them). They fled south into Central America where they established a stronghold within the Northern Triangle countries where we fast forward to present day with illegals continuously pouring (around 40 a day) in from the same areas from before but worse (excluding Mexico since it has been declining). There are still around 10,000 MS-18 members residing in the US.

From the standpoint of what I can see, liberal policies created this whole charade of violence/death just like how they support ANTIFA/BLM where the lot of them go out dressed all in black behind guy fawkes masks/folded bandanas to create anarchy and chaos.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xINgd-79XSo

reply

Except almost all illegals crossing the border aren't gang members. Trump has hyped the MS-13 threat to justify his draconian policies. The hard numbers tell a different story:

First off, while the current administration has tried to tie Central American migrants to MS-13, government data reveals that gang members crossing irregularly are the rare exceptions. Since the Trump administration took office, the Border Patrol has detected fewer gang members crossing irregularly than during the Obama administration. In FY2017, these detections amounted to 0.075 percent of the total number of migrants (228 MS-13 members out of 303,916 total migrants). When combined with MS-13’s rival, the Barrio 18 gang, the number rises only slightly to 0.095 percent. This is far from the “infestation” of violent gang members described by the president.
https://www.lawfareblog.com/whos-really-crossing-us-border-and-why-theyre-coming

Got that? That's just under ONE TENTH of ONE PERCENT of illegals crossing the border belonging to gangs.

With sanctuary cities it's not liberal policies but police chiefs in those cities who believe cooperation with ICE is a "net negative" by making it much harder to do their jobs:

"The idea that there are police departments giving sanctuary to violent criminals is ridiculous," said Houston Police Chief Art Acevedo. "I don't know any police department that does that."

The crackdown on sanctuary cities has put police chiefs at the center of a political battle over immigration — a battle they want no part of. The vast majority of agencies (even in liberal San Francisco) already cooperate with Immigration and Customs Enforcement on criminal investigations, they said, but federal officials and some states want even more cooperation from them.

Acevedo said state and federal pushback against sanctuary cities has already made it harder for his officers to do their jobs, as immigrants are more reluctant to talk to police. The Justice Department wants access to local jails and 48 hours’ notice before they release an inmate that immigration agents are interested in. Texas lawmakers have gone even further, by empowering individual police officers to ask anyone they stop about their immigration status. and many of his colleagues want to make clear that separating immigration enforcement from police work is not about protecting undocumented immigrants, it's about keeping cities safe.

When police are viewed as immigration authorities, it creates a haven for criminals to prey upon immigrants who are afraid to report crimes to police. They are also far less likely to serve as witnesses or share information with detectives, says Austin Police Chief Brian Manley.

"Criminals understand that, and they will feel emboldened to commit crimes against the immigrant community without fear of being held accountable because they know they won't call police," said Manley. "It creates a haven for crime."
https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2017/8/18/16130954/police-sanctuary-cities

reply

While small in percentile, it doesn't take much of them to create the chaos that they have in Central America which forced these illegals to flee more in numbers in the first place. I'm not talking about gang members coming in. As mentioned already before, the illegals that came from before weren't even gang members themselves until they later on became/formed one.

It's harder to do their jobs because they keep allowing undocumented migrants in which they have now have no real control over so they now have to rely on the undocumented public to do the reporting for them. Since the undocumented are breaking the law themselves by entering illegally, they'd be less inclined to give up any violent criminal within their group if police actually enforced the law. Two wrongs don't make a right. More violent criminals hiding amongst criminals and are protected by the criminals. When did we need to break the law just to keep the city now safe? Turning the place into the favelas of Mexico sort of speak, hiding amongst their newly created communities.

reply

The "chaos" in central and south america is mostly due to US foreign policy that had the Mericans insisting that they(central/south america)are part of the US's "backyard".

Merica meddled in their internal politics and supported violent insurgents.

Ever hear of the Iran-Contra scandal?

So you only have yourselves to blame really.

Just a caveat, there is a direct negative correlation between Merican involvement and development in the developing world that they exploit for the benefit of the plutocrats.

reply

Completely agree with this.

It's also the adoption of those zero tolerance policies, massive roundups casting a wide net of anyone suspected of belonging to a gang with no due process conducted by the Central American governments that just swelled the numbers and cohesiveness of the gang affiliated, before being exported back to America.

reply

Yeah but the idea that undocumented immigrants are more likely to commit crimes has been repeatedly debunked.

http://www.politifact.com/california/statements/2017/aug/03/antonio-villaraigosa/mostly-true-undocumented-immigrants-less-likely-co/

The most recent 2015 National Academy of Sciences study and a 2017 Libertarian Cato institute study found illegals FAR less likely to commit crimes than the native population and this holds for young men most likely to be undocumented immigrants: Mexican, Salvadoran, and Guatemalan males. The overwhelming majority are highly motivated to not blow their opportunity by getting in trouble with the law. Native born are about twice as likely to be incarcerated as illegals.

So even if you're referring to illegals that don't join gangs until they come here they're still only represented by a fraction of one percent of illegals overall. Minuscule. Significantly tinier than the native population.

It's important to distinguish between law abiding undocumented immigrants from real criminals because they're not at all the same thing. The 'criminality' of the former is on the books as a misdemeanor infraction. Is it useful to refer to those that have one misdemeanor on their record as 'criminals'? Metro police chiefs would say conflating them is counterproductive and I'd have to agree. "Sanctuary city" policies endorsed by big city police chiefs are responsible for significant reductions in crime in those cities. Zero tolerance enforcement criminalizing illegals increases crime rates. So what's the end game, crime reduction or deporting illegals who are overwhelmingly law abiding? I say crime reduction.

What I don't get is why you think "liberal policies" are responsible for MS-13 when the rounding up suspected gang members for deportation was part of a hard line tough on crime crackdown. There was nothing inherently "liberal" about those policies at all. Gov can't just execute suspected gang members, but they did deport them.

reply

Unhinged White gun lovers seem to be a bigger problem. Can we build a wall around red states and take the children/spouses (same people) away from them?

reply

Why do Repubs always pose questions in a way that makes Dems look like they WANT something with a bad outcome.
Nobody wants a bad economy or increased crime. But Repubs always want to make difficult problems seem to have easy solutions with get-tough tactics that hurt a lot of innocent people.

reply

Why do they indeed. Sadly I belong to no sides. Even if dems started the policies out as something of a positive outcome, the negative has been shown and they still want this type of immigration entering to stand even when the bad outcome has come to light and the results given showing the chaos it has created which has created more bad outcomes because of it. All I see is a continuation of a vicious cycle of violence and chaos.

reply

TL, DR

reply















tldr

reply

JFC ! Your second salvo was a literal -- a LITERAL alphabetic compilation of whatever crimes that might come to mind, a real cut-&-paste job Real thoughtful there -- NOT !!
And you obviously hate liberals w/o giving much thought to policy, so --
Have At It. No one takes you seriously, so rant and blab away. I was hoping for better.

reply

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xINgd-79XSo

Found a nice objective perspective report on the whole illegal immigration issue.

reply

Neo-Nazis created Antifa, and police officers shooting unarmed black men created BLM. Their existence did not require liberals.

This is like asking "why do conservatives hate Mexicans so much?" or "why does the GOP enjoy the countless murders of innocent black people?" That would seem to go too far, no? But as long as it's spoken about liberals, it's A-okay, right?

reply