statistics show the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry is likely lying about the number of women and children killed - Politics Discussion

[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

Yet before this particular increase in hostilities, the "Hamas-run Gaza Health Ministry" has always produced pretty accurate death toll figures. And there's huge numbers under the rubble not included in these figures yet.

Gotta love the media always emphasizing "Hamas-run" even when referring to the West Bank where they are not in control.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

You didn't read the article. It addresses the issue of the previous accuracy from the Gaza Health Ministry:

Some objective commentators have acknowledged Hamas’ numbers in previous battles with Israel to be roughly accurate. Nevertheless, this war is wholly unlike its predecessors in scale or scope; international observers who were able to monitor previous wars are now completely absent, so the past can’t be assumed to be a reliable guide. The fog of war is especially thick in Gaza, making it impossible to quickly determine civilian death totals with any accuracy.

On top of that, you're ignoring everything I said in the OP. Statistical analysis of the numbers provided by the Gaza Health Ministry shows that they just don't make any sense. You mention the claims of huge numbers of dead stuck under the rubble supposedly not accounted for yet but that's a different issue. The article is less about the total number of dead than about the demographics of those that have been killed. It's not about what the Gaza Health Ministry may not be able to know yet but about what it claims to currently know.

And when has anyone in the media ever referred to the West Bank as "Hamas-controlled"? I've never seen it.

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[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

I looked at the statistical analysis. I enjoy working with data like this, and have previously looked deeply into these figures myself to try to estimate the proportion of male deaths that were Hamas fighters.
It's not an unbiased analysis of the data. It is a Jewish magazine; the same one which has published an article saying "they are all Hamas", thereby excusing the civilian deaths.

For an example of the West Bank being erroneously referred to as having a "Hamas led" health ministry, go find the original Reuters/AP report of the Ibn Sina hospital assassinations.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

First off, Tablet Magazine didn't write the article. It merely published the article. The actual author of the article is Abraham Wyner, a professor of statistics and data science at the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania. If you want to say the article is biased then you're going to have to make the case against him. You allege bias against the article but you don't even try to prove that Wyner's statistical analysis of the demographic data provided by the Gaza Health Ministry is itself unobjective or that it's even wrong in any way. His analysis stands on its own merits and it clearly shows that the Gaza Health Ministry is probably lying about how many men, women and children have been killed.

I looked up both the Reuters and AP reports on the IDF's Ibn Sina raid and neither of them said anything at all about a "Hamas led" health ministry in the West Bank. Both articles simply referred to the "Palestinian health ministry" in the West Bank. So it seems the media has never actually referred to the West Bank as "Hamas-controlled". It's simply a fact that Hamas runs the government in Gaza and therefore Hamas controls the Gaza Health Ministry.

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[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

I'm aware of the author, we even have some cross over in areas of interest outside of Gaza/Israel... tell me when he gets this analysis peer reviewed.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

For all I know the article has already been peer-reviewed. I have no idea whether it's already been peer-reviewed or whether there are any plans for it to be peer-reviewed. The article says nothing about it. The article's analysis of the data seems to stand on its own merits. You haven't even tried to explain to me how the analysis is wrong. It should interest you to know that there's another article analyzing the data provided by the Gaza Health Ministry that has reached the same conclusion:

https://www.washingtoninstitute.org/media/7168?disposition=inline

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[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

How do you know that Epstein is more biased than Wyner or that he's even biased at all? More importantly, how do you know that Epstein's statistical analysis is wrong in any way? If you actually have any real reason to doubt the analysis of either article then you should tell me what it is because so far I haven't seen any reason to doubt either of them.

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[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

ok, one simple point which doesn't need any statistical knowledge...

Both authors use the al_Ahli hospital blast as evidence that the daily numbers are completely fabricated.
They posit that the estimated death toll for that incident put forward by Hamas does not make sense when compared to the total Gaza death toll for that time, when added to other acknowledged & evidenced deaths in Gaza.
But estimating a death toll for one incident does not mean finding every body involved. It can be from knowing how many people were likely to be in the area at the time of the blast and eye witness accounts. Finding and numbering the amount of dead from a large incident would take time.
Whereas the daily death tolls are sourced from actual bodies in hospitals and morgues (at least until mid November when things became more difficult as the health service progressively collapsed; the al-Ahli blast was in mid October).
So the estimated death toll from the blast would not be automatically incorporated into the official daily death tolls, making their argument fallacious.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

The Wyner article just briefly referenced the Al-Ahli hospital blast in a tangent about some deaths in Gaza being caused by Palestinian rockets. Wyner doesn't claim that the total number of deaths in Gaza is completely fabricated and he doesn't use the Al-Ahli hospital blast as a basis for his statistical analysis that makes up most of the article. So I have no idea why you claim that his analysis is fallacious. Did you even read the article? Did you even read my OP summarizing the article? My OP focuses exclusively on Wyner's analysis of the demographic data.

The same applies to the Epstein article. His conclusion is mostly an analysis of figures from over the course of several months. It's not simply an extrapolation based on the Al-Ahli hospital blast. The article itself says that "the al-Ahli explosion was a unique event, however, making it unclear whether the extent of data manipulation reflected an exception or the norm."

More importantly, I'm focusing on the demographics of those killed. Both articles focus on analyzing the accuracy of the Gaza Health Ministry's specific numbers of men, women and children killed. You don't say anything here at all about that analysis of the demographic data. You don't provide any basis at all for claiming that that either analysis is in any way fallacious.

Pointing out that it takes time finding and numbering the amount of dead from a large incident just helps to prove that the Gaza Health Ministry is just making things up. It claimed the very day of the Al-Ahli Hospital blast that 500 people were killed even though that was obviously wrong. It didn't take the time to carefully count how many were really killed before putting out that number right away.

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[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

ok, a bit more...

The linearity of the graph of total deaths. This can be explained by the hospitals and morgues running at capacity since the Israeli invasion. They can only process so many bodies per day, and may catch up adding people to the database on the days where there are less deaths that day.

"Unfortunately, verified control data is not available to formally test this conclusion, but the details of the daily counts render the numbers suspicious."
There are tests one can use to help determine if a dataset is fabricated.

"Hamas admitted to losing 6,000 of its fighters, which represents more than 20% of the total number of casualties reported."
A dead Hamas fighter is not necessarily in the official daily figures. His corpse may still be rotting outside crushed under some Israeli tank tracks. But Hamas will know roughly how many soldiers they used to have under their command, and how many they have now. It doesn't mean they counted every Hamas soldier's body.

re: UNRWA workers... To not be a good comparison measure, it would mean that a significant proportion of UNRWA workers would have to be literal Hamas fighters. No one has seriously suggested this, despite the allegations of a number UNRWA workers being involved in 10/7.

Both articles use just the basic cumulative figures to work from, but the daily deaths database is actually pretty comprehensive. It lists people by name, age, gender, id number, type of injury, location, etc. You can see some of this in the details released in response to Biden casting doubt on the figures which he later walked back on.
Now there's good reason to question the figures in the North in recent months, but in general the level of detail helps confirm the accuracy for the others against eye witness reports from neutral third parties such as Médecins Sans Frontières.

"It didn't take the time to carefully count how many were really killed before putting out that number right away."
Do you not know what an estimate means?

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

You seem to be making the unwarranted assumption that the daily total of deaths exceeded the hospitals' and morgues' capacities to count bodies every single day. But that would only be true if the number of dead exceeded the capacity every single day. But there were clearly wide variations in how many were killed each day. There's no reason for those capacities to be exceeded literally every single day. And there's no reason that all the hospitals and morgues would necessarily be unable to count the exact same number of bodies every single day. Cataloguing the name, age, gender, ID number, type of injury, location of death, etc. of every dead body killed on each day might may have taken more than one day but I fail to see why simply getting the total number of deaths for each day should take more than one day.

Furthermore, the Gaza Health Ministry never indicated that those numbers were based on its own limited capacity to count bodies every day. If this were true then the Health Ministry would admit it. It simply claimed that those were the number killed on each day. Without such an indication by the Health Ministry of this practice that linearity is extremely suspicious.

The Hamas military commanders and the Gaza Health Ministry don't necessarily communicate at all with each other. The Health Ministry doesn't count how many of the dead are soldiers. There's no indication that either relies on the other for their figures. Wyner simply plugs the 6,000 dead Hamas fighters into the Health Ministry's total number of dead men to show that the latter number doesn't make sense. How Hamas figures its own casualties doesn't change the fact that the total number of men killed just doesn't make any sense.

The comparison of UNRWA workers killed to the total number killed was made before it was revealed that UNRWA had been heavily infiltrated by Hamas. That comparison was made without knowledge of that infiltration. Those dozen who participated in the 10/7 attack are just the ones that Israel knows about. There could be more. And there could be more UNRWA among the rest of the Hamas fighters that Israel doesn't know about. You don't know just how deep the Hamas infiltration of UNRWA really goes.

The statistics you cite from the Gaza Health Ministry showing name, age, gender, ID number, type of injury, location of death, etc. for each dead body don't really help your case because those are from before 10/26 and Wyner looked at the data from 10/26-11/10. The demographics of those numbers are clearly suspicious. The Gaza Health Ministry claims that after 11/10 it began getting its fatality figures for Northern Gaza from "reliable media sources".

I do know what an estimate means. The point is that the estimate by the Gaza Health Ministry of the number killed at the Al-Ahli Hospital was obviously wrong from the start. The Gaza Health Ministry revised its 10/17 estimate down from 500 to 471, which was also obviously wrong. It also claimed that only 342 had been wounded, a suspiciously low number compared to such a high number supposedly killed. The Gaza Health Ministry's final number was clearly a lie. So it clearly has an established history of lying.

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[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

"Furthermore, the Gaza Health Ministry never indicated that those numbers were based on its own limited capacity to count bodies every day."

Their methodology for counting the dead is known. And throughout this conflict it's clear that the hospitals are extremely stretched. This doesn't have to be a hard limit, and the number of the daily dead does vary. But as long as processing the number of adult bodies is a significant limiting factor, which would be difficult to deny, then this would also have an influence on the genders. a + b = c If a goes up, it is inevitable b will go down, so it is not surprising that there is a strong negative correlation between male deaths and female deaths.

"How Hamas figures its own casualties doesn't change the fact that the total number of men killed just doesn't make any sense."
Why? The number of daily dead (until mid November) came from hospitals/morgues. Not every dead Hamas soldier is going to end up in a hospital/morgue.

UNRWA: "There could be more. " Do you know what "significant" means? Even if some UNRWA workers moonlight as Hamas fighters, we could factor that in and still say that the death toll numbers still look alright. To have a significant effect on the comparison, there would have to be huge numbers of UNRWA who are literal Hamas fighters which is nonsensical. The UNRWA deaths are a good neutral indicator of the civilian deaths, which is exactly why the Israelis have been working to discredit the organization (well, that and to act as an excuse for intentionally demolishing their infrastructure).

"The Gaza Health Ministry claims that after 11/26 it began getting its fatality figures from "reliable media sources"." ...for the North. And that's why it is ok to still question those figures. But they still use the old methodology for the South and even parts of the North. And you can see where this differs in the database.

"the number killed at the Al-Ahli Hospital was obviously wrong from the start" And yet the Americans estimated it to be as high as 300.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

There's a difference between fully cataloguing all the details of deaths and simply counting dead bodies. It doesn't take that much effort to count a dead body. And as you pointed out, the Health Ministry was cataloguing the name, age, gender, ID number, type of injury, location of death, etc. of every dead body killed on each day. The fact that it was able to do all that doesn't indicate that their basic capacity to count bodies is so "extremely stretched" that they can't simply count all the dead bodies every day. And the Health Ministry has never acknowledged the possibility of time lapses between anyone being killed and their deaths being officially tallied. You seem to just assume it. As I said before, the daily variations in the number of dead would show up in the statistics. At low points in the number of dead, the Health Ministry would catch up and that would be shown in the statistics. But instead, the total deaths increased daily with almost metronomical linearity for 2 straight weeks. That doesn't make any sense.

There is no rational reason that daily totals of men and women killed should consistently have a strong negative correlation. That only makes sense if the Health Ministry is purposely focusing on counting men's bodies on some days while purposely focusing on counting women's bodies on other days. But there's no indication that they did that and it wouldn't make any sense to do it that way. Furthermore, the discrepancy between civilian men's and women's deaths isn't just a matter of the daily totals but of the overall totals over the course of the war. The overall number of civilian men killed is far too low to be possible. You dispute this without good reason. You say that not every dead Hamas soldier is going to end up in a hospital or morgue but the same is equally true for civilian men. And it's clear that the Health Ministry is including Hamas soldiers among the dead it counts. In addition to that, the daily numbers of women killed and of children killed also don't correlate with each other, with wide variations between them.

Part of the problem with using the percentage of UNRWA workers killed to prove the validity of the Health Ministry's overall figures is the number of the former was quite small compared to the latter. There were only 13,000 UNRWA workers so it would be much easier to count their dead. And as I said before, the comparison was based on the assumption that no UNRWA workers at all were fighting for Hamas. Why is it nonsensical that large numbers of UNRWA workers could be Hamas fighters? One of the UNRWA workers, an elementary school teacher, was a Hamas commander involved in the massacre at Kibbutz Be’eri. It would benefit Hamas to infiltrate UNRWA as much as possible and to recruit as many UNRWA workers as possible as fighters. And even if there weren't such a large number of Hamas fighters in UNRWA, Hamas's infiltration of UNRWA could have exposed the rest of UNRWA to greater danger than average Palestinian civilians. Israel claims that 10% of UNRWA workers are connected to Hamas or Islamic Jihad, which is higher than the rest of the Gazan population. You claim Israel is intentionally destroying UNRWA infrastructure without accounting for the possibility that much if not most of it has been used by Hamas. Even if that's not the case, so much infrastructure in Gaza has been destroyed or damaged that I don't see how you can claim that the destruction of a lot of UNRWA infrastructure is more than an incidental effect of the overall war.

Regardless of the fact that the Health Ministry only used "reliable media sources" for fatality figures from the north after 11/10, the fact of the matter is that it hasn't provided name, age, gender, ID number, type of injury, location of death, etc. for each dead body in the south since that time. So none of the fatality figures since 10/26 have that more specific information to back up the Health Ministry's more specific claims about the demographic distribution of the dead. And this supposed methodology still doesn't explain the gross discrepancy between civilian men's and women's deaths in the long-term totals.

The Health Ministry initially claimed that there were 500 killed and 342 wounded in the blast at the Al-Ahli Hospital. Given how many it claimed were wounded, that number of dead was obviously wrong from the start. And there's a big difference between 300 and 500. There's an even bigger difference 500 and 100, the lower end of the American estimate. And that's on top of the fact that the Health Ministry lied about the cause of the explosion.

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[–] ur4196727 (109) 9 months ago

It has not, and will never be peer reviewed. Posting an article from a member of the Koret Project doesn't strengthen your case.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

I don't see how you know it will never be peer-reviewed. Articles written by university professors are frequently peer-reviewed. And whether it gets peer-reviewed is irrelevant. Either the article's analysis is right or it's wrong. You don't even try to explain how it's wrong in any way.

You also don't even try to explain how the Epstein article is wrong in any way. I don't know anything about the Koret Project and I don't know that you know anything about it either. More importantly, the fact that Epstein works for the Koret Project doesn't prove that his analysis of the Gaza Health Ministry's data is wrong in any way.

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[–] Keelai (34864) 9 months ago

No, already confirmed it's not. They have the names, gender and age of most Palestinians who have been slaughtered by the Israelis in their genocide/ethnic cleansing pogrom. The dead are actually under counted because many still trapped under rubble.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

You don't even know what you're talking about. Nothing has actually been confirmed. The personal information for people killed in Gaza that you're talking about all comes from before October 26th. In contrast, the statistics that I'm talking about that show that the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry is probably lying about the number of women and children killed comes from after October 26th.

And the article I linked to in the OP doesn't have much to say about the overall total number of people killed. It mostly focuses on the demographic statistics provided by the Gaza Health Ministry on those who were killed. The article proves that those demographic statistics don't make any sense so they were probably just made up out of thin air by the Gaza Health Ministry.

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[–] Keelai (34864) 9 months ago

"probably just made up out of thin air" = your genocide denial

"Two Israeli intelligence officials who spoke to the Hebrew-language Local Call news website said the health ministry is mostly "reliable" and their main source of statistics on civilian deaths in Gaza.

"Israeli intelligence secretly surveilled officials in Gaza’s Health Ministry to check if their data on the number of civilians killed in Gaza is 'reliable', Israeli intelligence sources told us. The army found the numbers are reliable and now regularly uses them internally in intelligence briefings," reporter Yuval Abraham said on X on Wednesday.

Abraham added that the sources said Israel has no good wellspring for data on Palestinian casualties in Gaza, so relies solely on the Palestinian data."

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

It's not "genocide denial" because the article I linked to doesn't focus on the total number of people killed. It mostly focuses on the demographics of those who were killed. Are you at least smart enough to understand that very simple concept?

The newarab.com article you quote from is talking about Israeli intelligence accepting the reliability of the Gaza Health Ministry's overall totals for the number of people killed. The article says nothing about Israeli intelligence believing that the demographic data provided by the Gaza Health Ministry is accurate. One is the total number of people killed and the other is the division of those killed between men, women and children. Do you understand the difference?

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[–] Keelai (34864) 9 months ago

"After 10 years of trying, a Palestinian woman had twins. An Israeli strike killed them both

An Israeli strike hit the home of her extended family in the southern Gaza city of Rafah late Saturday, killing her children, her husband and 11 other relatives and leaving another nine missing under the rubble, according to survivors and local health officials."
https://apnews.com/article/israel-hamas-war-children-twins-killed-gaza-25282b273b92aec7fc75c3212f8d8e3f

Gaza = 50% children; 50% women + Israel targeting civilians especially women and children = genocide

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

And, as usual, you're trying to change the subject now that I proved you completely wrong. I win again. That's what you get for being so lazy and not reading anything.

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[–] Keelai (34864) 9 months ago

Israeli Jews celebrating the deaths of Palestinian babies. They bring their children and rejoice similar to whites bringing their young children to celebrate a lynching in the Jim Crow south.

Tarik Cyril Amar, a historian from Germany and associate professor at Koc University in Istanbul, to discuss Israel’s descent into genocidal fascism.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UbppCU7uiJw

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[–] TimeTunnel (4769) 9 months ago

"Tarik Cyril Amar, a historian from Germany..."

Tarik Cyril Amar isn't from Germany.
With a short research I wasn't able to find out where he was born.
But nowhere it was said that he's of German origin.
You got that "from Germany" from the YT-video.
Maybe he was in Germany when he gave an interview.
Sometimes, somewhere.

On his homepage it's said he's in Istanbul (Türkiye).
https://www.tarikcyrilamar.com/
I didn't find a record where he speaks German.
Maybe he's fluent in German but his accent when he speaks English doesn't sound German to me. Arabians and Turks have similar difficulties to pronounce the English "th".
Tarik and Amar are Arabian names.

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[–] Keelai (34864) 9 months ago

He speaks Russian, Ukrainian, Polish, German, French and English.
https://cdn.ku.edu.tr/resume/tcyrilamar.pdf

He knows where he's from which is Germany.
https://www.rt.com/russia/542674-scare-war-ukraine-conflict/

The topic is about sadistic enjoyment of Palestinian genocide and suffering by some Israelis and its support by most as well as the complicity and aide in genocide by other countries. He explains in a normal world, the U.S. and other countries would send troops against Israel to end its genocide. He compares it to the Holocaust and how no country attempted to end it and that's happening in this situation. He warns that Israel's barbarism is creating precedent and you shouldn't assume that one day you won't be a victim in a war.

He's right about genocide. Other countries ignore it.

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[–] TimeTunnel (4769) 9 months ago

Aha, if RT (Russia Today) also says that Amar is from Germany, then it must be true! 🤥

And Amar is NOT right about "genocide".
You still cannot distinguish between war and genocide.
A war that the Palestinians started. ☻
Play cruel games, win cruel prizes.
But the children, the children!!! *howling, howling*

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

You're off topic. The subject under discussion is the Hamas-controlled Gaza Health Ministry lying about the demographics of the Palestinians killed in the war. If you don't have anything to say about that subject then don't comment in this discussion, please.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

For discussion let's pretend for the moment for the sake of discussion the article is true.
That the high counts of death toll numbers are made up.

That does not matter and does not take away from the fact that the IDF has been murdering innocent Palestinian men, women and children.
This is a fact you nor anyone else can deny no matter how much you try to.

Yes or no with no ifs, ands or buts.
Do you care at all that they are being killed?
Would you like to see that end?
Yes or no,
None of those answers with, "But, but, but Hamas....blah blah blah."
Just yes or no for both.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

Did you even read the article I linked to or my OP? The article doesn't focus on the accuracy of the overall totals of fatalities provided by the Gaza Health Ministry. It focuses on the accuracy of the demographics of those fatalities provided by the Gaza Health Ministry. Are you clear on that?

The fact of the matter is that the Gaza Health Ministry is putting out fake statistics on the demographics of those killed to help them get extra global sympathy for Gaza. We can't discuss this war honestly while using fake statistics on the number of women and children killed.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

That does not matter and does not take away from the fact that the IDF has been murdering innocent Palestinian men, women and children.
This is a fact you nor anyone else can deny no matter how much you try to.

Yes or no with no ifs, ands or buts.
Do you care at all that they are being killed?
Would you like to see that end?
Yes or no,
None of those answers with, "But, but, but Hamas....blah blah blah."
Just yes or no for both.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

First off, you claimed several months ago that the Israeli victims of the 10/7 attack were crisis actors. I can't take your self-righteous condemnation of Israel's war seriously while you deny the very atrocity carried out against Israel that started this war. You can't wholly deny the deaths of the Israelis murdered by Hamas and then expect me to take your condemnation of the IDF seriously. If you try to dig in on that claim then you'll just guarantee that I say nothing about the war in Gaza that you want to hear.

Israel's war in Gaza is not murder. I can easily deny it. It's just war. Civilians have been killed by bombing in every war in the past 100 years. It's an accepted part of war. Hamas uses Gaza's children as human shields and that makes Hamas responsible for their deaths. Article 28 of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War says that "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

I care that Gazans are being killed but that doesn't change my view that the war is necessary and that the incidental death of Gazan civilians is acceptable. At the very least, it shouldn't end until Hamas releases all the Israeli hostages. I would also accept that the war won't end until the Hamas leadership in Gaza is completely destroyed. I don't live in Israel so I have less of a stake in the matter. Are you aware that the area of Israel that came under attack on 10/7 has been completely evacuated? The Israelis who lived there refuse to return until Hamas is eliminated from Gaza. So Israel really has no choice but to completely destroy Hamas in Gaza. It would be better for you to ask those Israeli refugees what they think about the deaths of Gazan civilians since the war will affect them far more than it could possibly affect me.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

"I care that Gazans are being killed but that doesn't change my view that the war is necessary and that the incidental death of Gazan civilians is acceptable."

The word "but" cancels out everything that came before it.

So you don't care at all that they are being murdered and instead is yet another one who is pro war and pro killing of innocent civilians with children being among them.
You don't care.
I do.
Which makes me better than you.

I got it now even though that was obvious with your justification of civilian deaths with your bogus OP.

Israel does have a choice and they made the wrong one.
You need to start being more enlightened like I am.
Between us I am the better one.
That is fact and not opinion.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

You ask if I cared whether Gazans are being killed and I answered your question. I certainly don't enjoy it. Regardless of whether you believe that I really care, I defend Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza on its merits. It's absolutely necessary. You claim Israel supposedly has a choice on this but you don't even tell me what the other choice even is.

As I said before, I can't take your self-righteous condemnation of Israel or me for supporting Israel seriously after you claimed that the Israeli victims of the 10/7 attack were crisis actors. You can't wholly deny the deaths of the Israelis murdered by Hamas and then legitimately complain about what Israel is doing to Gaza. You aren't nearly as righteous as you think you are.

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[–] parkerbot (9075) 9 months ago

I'll take More Mossad Propaganda for $200 Alex.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

Professor Abraham Wyner doesn't work for the Mossad. He works for the Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania.

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[–] parkerbot (9075) 9 months ago

Sorry Rusty, I'm not down with killing children.

Not buying the Kool-Aid you're selling.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

I'm not buying the Kool-Aid you're selling about Abraham Wyner working for the Mossad.

Were you down with killing children in Germany and Japan during World War II?

Hamas started this war. Israel has to destroy Hamas in Gaza. Hamas has made it impossible for Israel to do that without killing civilians in the process.

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[–] parkerbot (9075) 9 months ago

I hope you're a bot.

I can't imagine people existing in the real world who are fine with children being murdered.

If you're real, maybe it's time for a gut check.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

You didn't answer my question about whether you were down with killing children in Germany and Japan during World War II. Why are you afraid to answer this question?

And it's not murder. It's just war. Civilians have been killed by bombing in every war in the past 100 years. It's an accepted part of war. Hamas uses Gaza's children as human shields and that makes Hamas responsible for their deaths. Article 28 of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War says that "The presence of a protected person may not be used to render certain points or areas immune from military operations."

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[–] parkerbot (9075) 9 months ago

You deflection skills are on par with Patrick Roy.

Children are being murdered right now and you shift to World War 2. Smooth. Like a laxative.

Enjoy being a horrible person.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

Spot on Parker about yet another moron with his head up his ass to keep himself in denial.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

By your logic, children were also murdered by Allied bombing during World War II. And yet you don't have the courage to take a moral stand on that while you condemn me. You can't arbitrarily decide that it's murder sometimes but not others. Don't pretend I'm any more horrible than you are, however horrible that may be.

And I just explained why it's not murder. Re-read what I quoted from Article 28 of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War.

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[–] parkerbot (9075) 9 months ago

Later Ernst Zündel.

I'm not interested in chatting with people who like killing children.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

Spare me your phony self-righteousness. I never said that I "like" killing children. I've merely defended Israel's war against Hamas in Gaza that results in civilians being incidentally killed in the process. Why do you have to distort what I said?

And I'm sure that, unlike you, the real Ernst Zundel wouldn't have shied away from condemning the Allies as murderers for killing civilians by bombing German cities.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

If you don't like killing children then you should stop running away and answer this:

Yes or no with no ifs, ands or buts.
Do you care at all that innocent Palestinians are being killed?
Would you like to see that end?
Yes or no,
None of those answers with, "But, but, but Hamas....blah blah blah."
Just yes or no for one and the other or for both.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

This is from an obvious biased source when they have other hit tabloid pieces such as:

Longing for Auschwitz
The ultimate aims of the war against the Jewish state would rival the worst horrors of our history

Which is full of lies such as:
(On Oct. 7th) In addition to the merciless torture, killings, slashings, burnings, beheadings, mutilations, dismemberments, and kidnappings, there were gang-rapes and other forms of sadistic sexual assault, including, according to some reports, the cutting off of women’s breasts, nails driven into women’s thighs and groins, bullets fired into their vaginas, and even intercourse with female corpses. Unimaginable? For most normal people, yes. But before going into Israel, the Hamas assassins were instructed to “dirty them” and “whore them.” And that’s precisely what many of them faithfully did.

And:
Responding to Hamas’ bloody deeds, one Israeli woman summed up the reactions of virtually every Jew in the country and millions of others abroad when she said, simply and incontrovertibly, “Every Israeli’s worst nightmares have come true.”

While ignoring the holocaust nightmare Israel has since been causing for every single innocent Palestinian man, woman and child in Gaza in their ethnic cleansing mass genocide of them.

Here we go again with Jews thinking and acting as if they are so fucking special while their shit doesn't stink.

So with this Zionist hit piece full of so much bullshit and not having a single one showing the horrors the IDF is doing to the Gazans they are biased and nothing of what they write and share can be trusted.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

There's a lot wrong with what you've said here. First off, the article is simply an analysis of the statistics on fatalities provided by the Gaza Health Ministry. The article's statistical analysis is either right or it's wrong. The possibility of bias on the part of the author doesn't change that. The article was written by Abraham Wyner, not Tablet Magazine. Tablet merely published the article on its website. And you don't even try to prove that the author is himself biased.

Second, your attack on Tablet is completely ridiculous. You quote the first paragraph from another article at Tablet written by a completely different author about a completely different subject in a completely different style and claim it's full of lies. But you don't even tell me what those lies actually are. Even if anything in that article were a lie, it would have absolutely no bearing on the truth of Wyner's article.

No one at Tablet claimed that Jews "are so fucking special while their shit doesn't stink". Your anti-Jewish prejudice is obvious. It's clear that your attitude towards this article is mostly a function of that prejudice. None of Tablet's articles concerning the war in Israel depend for their trustworthiness on Tablet's choice to also have articles focusing on the war's effects on Gazans. That's a completely illegitimate measure of Tablet's articles on the war. All of Tablet's articles stand individually on their own merit.

It might interest you to know that Tablet often has articles arguing different points of view on the same subject. For example, in 2023 it had numerous articles arguing for or against the judicial reform in Israel. For all you know, Tablet may one day have articles criticizing the war in Gaza.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

I don't care about an unpredictable future when what we got is the now.

And right now Tablet is running pro terrorist IDF pieces to justify the murders of the innocents in Gaza.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

Tablet simply ran an article with a statistical analysis of the demographic data on fatalities provided by the Gaza Health Ministry among numerous other articles concerning the war in Gaza. That analysis is either right or it's wrong. You dismiss it without even trying to explain why it's wrong.

Tablet also has many articles concerning World War II. None of them criticize the Allies for the bad things done to German civilians during or after World War II. I doubt you would call its World War II articles "pro-terrorist Allies pieces". Your condemnation of Tablet for its many articles exploring the different aspects of the war in Gaza is completely absurd as well as completely irrelevant to the OP.

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 9 months ago

Well said. Rusty Shacklefurd is a shameless Israel apologist and is well known for parroting Zionist talking points on these forums so unfortunately you're speaking to deaf ears.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

Thanx for the feedback and insight to this Shakelturd fellow is.

It is at least comforting to have yet to see anyone agree with this fake news in the OP.

So obvious this is a lie from someone sitting comfortably at his home or office thousands of miles away from the death and destruction.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

You're an extremely paranoid, rude and nasty commenter who shows no respect for anyone who dares to disagree with you. You call me a "shameless Israel apologist" just because I refused to accept your ridiculous conspiracy theory that there was short selling of Israeli stocks in the days leading up to the October 7th attack. Ridiculing me for "parroting Zionist talking points" doesn't in any way disprove Abraham Wyner's analysis of the demographic data on fatalities released by the Gaza Health Ministry.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

Is Abe Wyner who wrote this a Jew?
If he is that would explain why he made up this lie.
If he is not then I dunno why he did.

He is not there so he is not to be trusted.
Instead he just sits comfortably and safe at home just pulling all of this out of his ass to try and justify the mass murder of the holocaust for the Palestinians the terrorist IDF is causing them.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

I don't know or care whether or not Abraham Wyner is Jewish. It doesn't matter to the issue at hand. His analysis is either wrong or it's right and whether or not he's Jewish is completely irrelevant to that. You claim his article is a "lie" but you haven't said what that supposed lie actually is. He doesn't have to be in Gaza or Israel to be trusted on this matter. He's just analyzing publicly available information. Do you even realize that? He can easily perform such statistical analysis while being safe and comfortable at home. And he doesn't actually try to "justify" Israel's war in Gaza. He doesn't make a normative argument about the overall morality of the war in the article.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

He can do whatever he wants and at the end of the day it won't matter since this fake news is being ignored and laughed at by others here who are smart like me and the MSM.
This will go nowhere because it is just some racist schmuck who isn't there and is just looking at numbers to determine this?
This is war where there will not be anything exact as, say, figuring out how many cans a grocery shelf in an aisle should be able to fit.
There can be no exact math to this.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

Abraham Wyner's analysis is certainly not fake news. You don't even try to explain what actually makes it fake. You dishonestly dismiss it without any explanation. It's certainly not being ignored. I've seen it referenced in many places throughout the Internet. You call Wyner racist without any basis. As I already explained, he doesn't have to actually "be there" to simply analyze publicly available information. Denying this proves you're not actually "smart". You just have Dunning-Kruger Syndrome. The demographics of war fatalities provided by a government body can certainly be completely correct if it chooses to make sure they're correct. Claiming "there can be no exact math to this" is just a way of admitting that Wyner is right to question the demographic distribution of the dead provided by the Gaza Health Ministry.

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

I am smarter than you because I am not going to believe this bullshit in your OP and neither is anyone else of this fake news.

And this bullshit is taking away the human factor by reducing the victims down to just numbers on a page which is all what this is trying to do.

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[–] RustyShacklefurd (2039) 9 months ago

Claiming you're smarter than me just makes you come off as a narcissist. Casually dismissing a statistical analysis without even trying to explain why you do so and without even seeming to have read the article or my OP summarizing it is certainly not "smart".

The human factor exists in every war. But that doesn't mean that there's anything wrong with trying to ascertain the accuracy of the fatality figures from every war. Eventually, historians will do just that for this war. Doing that is a frequent activity of mine on this forum. Just a couple months ago there was a thread here where I discussed with tvfan the number of German civilians who died in the aftermath of World War II. You may recall that discussion between us because you also participated in that thread. tvfan said that 9 million died due to deliberate Allied starvation and expulsion policies. I pointed out that the figure of 9 million is based on James Bacque's claim that 5.7 million Germans died because of Allied occupation policies and I explained that figure isn't accepted by historians because it has no correspondence at all in historical literature.

I disputed a claim about the deaths of millions and here you are complaining that I'm supposedly "taking away the human factor" because I quibble over the alleged demographic details of the deaths of a few thousand people. Think carefully about that before you make another self-righteous condemnation of me for what I say about the war in Gaza.

Wyner's analysis is either right or it's wrong. That's all there is to it.

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[–] Porsche911 (3598) 9 months ago

Israel lies all the way!!

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[–] WarrenPeace (2267) 9 months ago

Indeed.

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[–] almonigal (1283) 9 months ago

You're mentally ill and a psychopath

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[–] TimeTunnel (4769) 9 months ago

Who are these incompetent insults reminiscent of? 😉

P.S. Period! ☺

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[–] almonigal (1283) 9 months ago

It's a diagnostic, not an insult.

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[–] TimeTunnel (4769) 9 months ago

Of course!...you're Dr. Psych. 🥱

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[–] SemiAnimus (2353) 9 months ago

You are not the first one to come to this conclusion about TimeToddler. He's one of many schizo posters on these forums but since Iceland is a welfare state, his mental illness enables him to be unemployed while he stays up all night posting on threads like this one.

For a good laugh look up the board for the horror movie Lamb where he went full schizo and described the movie being about God and Jesus before going off on anyone who disagreed with his mentally ill projections and accused the people responding of being alternate accounts and following him around the message boards. The guy is seriously a nutcase.

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